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Talkbox

2019 Aug 22 12:53:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Aug 22 10:04:46
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Aug 22 10:01:05
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Aug 21 10:59:03
Johann: May Sukha come to fulfillment, Nyom.

2019 Aug 21 10:44:55
Moritz: Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_ I have some other stuff to do now and will come back later. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 21 09:15:49
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 21 08:22:24
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 20 11:46:26
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 20 11:25:55
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Aug 16 12:51:30
Johann: Does she have any technical difficulty? Just because such could be.

2019 Aug 16 12:50:14
Johann: Nyom Anneliese

2019 Aug 15 04:29:20
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Aug 15 03:49:34
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 15 00:36:44
Johann: A blessed full moon Upusatha and much joy in merits

2019 Aug 11 14:35:01
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka! Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann, Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Aug 11 14:32:29
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Aug 11 14:14:46
Johann: Nyom Mohan

2019 Aug 11 07:32:16
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 11 01:15:57
Johann: Nothing much burdensome this time, Nyom Villa.

2019 Aug 10 16:42:46
Cheav Villa: How is Bhante health?  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 10 16:28:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 10 15:04:44
Johann: Nyom Vithou, Nyom Villa

2019 Aug 08 02:03:56
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 08 01:32:20
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ sadhu

2019 Aug 08 00:29:15
Johann: A blessed Uposatha-Sila-observation day and much recoicing with ones beauty investments and gains.

2019 Aug 03 01:35:23
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 03 01:09:55
Moritz: (or morning...)

2019 Aug 03 01:09:31
Moritz: Good evening, Bhante _/\_

2019 Aug 02 08:54:49
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 02 07:30:06
Johann: Once really going for refuge, such is ensured.

2019 Aug 02 07:28:16
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Aug 02 07:04:04
Cheav Villa: May all suffering being healed under the refuge of the three gems _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:36:31
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:41
Moritz: (going to sleep now) _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:24
Moritz: _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:21
Moritz: Good morning, Bhante, bong Villa!

2019 Aug 02 01:37:32
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 02 01:32:14
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 31 12:20:23
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jul 31 12:02:09
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 31 12:01:42
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 31 04:38:59
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 31 01:32:33
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jul 31 01:12:19
Khemakumara: May all have a meritful, fruitful full moon uposatha

2019 Jul 31 01:09:55
Khemakumara: May the Buddha Parisā live  united, in harmony,  in accordance with the dhamma vinaya of the Buddha.

2019 Jul 30 15:48:19
Johann: Upasaka Jens

2019 Jul 29 05:58:57
Johann: Dhammata, Nyom

2019 Jul 28 19:00:12
Vithou: Everything fine with me. What about Bhante?  _/\_

2019 Jul 28 18:58:39
Vithou: kana bhante.

2019 Jul 28 16:26:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 28 16:19:49
Johann: Over 1100 fine material visitor at the same time. Mudita and a blessed mindful night.

2019 Jul 28 14:14:10
Johann: over 700 "Devas" following Nyom Villa currently here  :) maybe they will reach 1000 today.

2019 Jul 27 17:54:39
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Everthing fine for him?

2019 Jul 27 17:44:50
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jul 27 16:20:40
Johann: Upasaka Vinz

2019 Jul 24 23:34:36
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 24 13:21:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Jul 24 13:10:12
Johann: May all spend a blessed Sila day

2019 Jul 19 17:04:51
Johann: Master Moritz. Much joy with good undertakings.

2019 Jul 19 17:01:59
Moritz: and off to work _/\_

2019 Jul 19 17:01:42
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 16 09:09:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ sadhu

2019 Jul 16 02:34:51
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 16 01:43:24
Johann: A meritful and joyful Fullmoo Uposatha obervance today!

2019 Jul 10 05:42:38
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Jul 10 02:06:05
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 10 02:02:27
Johann: May all spend a blessed Sila-day today, engaging much in good deeds.

2019 Jul 09 11:04:55
Johann: A meritful rest of Sila-day, those who observe it today.

2019 Jul 07 06:03:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 06 14:38:48
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jul 06 14:38:26
Mohan Gnanathilake: Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann, Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!                                                                                                                                 

2019 Jul 06 14:11:36
Johann: Nyom Mohan

2019 Jul 06 13:15:40
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 06 13:03:25
Johann: Kana will try to send the other half of bag as well as "tnam luvin".

2019 Jul 06 12:57:40
Johann: Half the bag, 7 pills, leaded fast to cure.

2019 Jul 06 12:56:05
Johann: Kana wondered about eye and head ache, later reading that viruse, if on head, easy can damage both.

2019 Jul 06 12:54:26
Johann: Kana had to use anti-biotica (augumentine) of which was still left

2019 Jul 06 12:29:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ good state of mind.  The infection of the skin isn't already healed but getting better day by day.

2019 Jul 06 12:18:09
Johann: Bhante. Already good healthy again?

2019 Jul 06 12:12:21
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 Jul 06 12:11:55
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann

2019 Jul 06 11:46:47
Khemakumara: Nyom Vinz

2019 Jul 06 06:21:33
Johann: Sokh chomreoun Nyom

2019 Jul 06 04:29:33
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 05 12:27:20
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jul 05 07:51:59
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 05 06:52:40
Khemakumara: Today isn't a"full moon"uposatha,  but nevertheless it can be also a"full heart"day of observance and sila.

2019 Jul 04 16:42:58
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Jul 04 16:22:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 02 04:43:47
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jul 02 02:04:50
Johann: A blessed and meritful new-moon Uposatha

2019 Jul 01 06:43:03
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 01 04:09:06
Johann: May those undertaking the Uposatha today spend the new-moon joyfull with much merits.

2019 Jun 26 01:07:18
Johann: Good to hear

2019 Jun 25 16:22:42
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី Norum  :D _/\_

2019 Jun 25 12:48:21
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 25 05:02:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 25 01:34:59
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:36
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:17
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?  (Read 456 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?
« on: May 22, 2019, 11:22:45 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Venerable Members of the Sangha,
Venerable Fellows,

Honored Buddha Parisata,
Valued Upasaka, Upasika,
Interested,

May those advanced and skilled in Dhamma, out of compassion, correct my persons mistakes and possible fill up with missing explaining if not well presented.

What's the effect of association with outcasts?

Even if out of "compassion", what's the effect of association with outcasts , even appear as "family-member" of such?

What's the effect of being related to those who are actually turned over the bowl?

Associate with thieves, slander, people who speak in dispraise of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gratitude, generosity, virtue... those who use generosity to offend the giver... with no regard for hospitality, training, teacher, faith...

Do they risk to be avoided likewise by the wise and good?

How are people adviced to act in regard of outcasts? To bear such, or to avoid any association or ways that look like as if?


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

From the Sutta Nipata: The famouse Mangala sutta , the highest blessings, starts with:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Asevanā ca bālānaṃ paṇḍitānañca sevanā, Pūjā ca pūjanīyānaṃ etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ. The Buddha: Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection.

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The vicious are dear to him. He likes not the virtuous; he approves the teachings of the ill-natured — this is the cause of his downfall.


There is no more clear advice in regard of association, then in regard of fools, outcasts and bad friends, since it is the only outer condition of either growth or downfall. A clear "Not to do! When ever traced"

To take such even as advisor, a person of wrong view, or dwell in areas where "outcasts" even get a lot of reputation, shows just the natural flow of those possible never will meet the good teachings. Becoming and resist there one cultivates many "enemies" and increases suffering for both, others and oneself.

While such as pain, harsh words... is something that one should endurance, fools are to be avoided:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.

So even if there is the danger to be suspected associating with such!

Since association has (even not recognized) extreme fast impart one oneself, nothing more is urged, as outer needed condition, as to avoid evil people and wrong view.

There is not a single account to be found, that the Buddha and wise advice in ways of seeing it easy, but the opposite.

Even in regard of people how are actually no more able to fall down, who could resist under people with wrong views, or in regard of simply dwelling near, the Buddha advised not to do such, because at least one could be suspect to associate and would therefore be avoided by good people and one gives a sample for others who might be not that strong to resist for themselves.

A well-known simile in regard of assiciation is that of a banana leave taking on the smell of fermented fish.

The fermentation of foolish compassion with people who can actually only be helped by avoiding, if, effects for one not only the reputation of being not firm in faith of the Buddhas advises but also the circumstance to be suspected being another of those outcasts, one who approves their ways.

Even under recluses:

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Bhikkhus, these three persons are evident in the world. Which three? A certain person should be loathed, should not be associated. The second should be looked after not associated and the third should be associated. Bhikkhus, which person should be loathed and not associated. Here a certain person is unvirtuous, with evil thoughts like rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out. Bhikkhus, this kind of person should be loathed, should not be associated. What is the reason? In some way if this person is not imitated, ill fame spreads, this is an evil friend, an associate of evil. Just as a serpent with excreta on its body would not sting anyone, for he smears excreta. In the same manner an unvirtuous person with evil thoughts similar to rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out should be loathed, should not be associated.

More on friendship and association here: Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata.
 


Whether one is capable to trace of what is good or bad, aside of the prerequisite of being informed, is of course a matter of ones Upanissaya and tendency, and nobody, at least, could those by their tendencies destined to bad association, help out. Not even the Sublime Buddha.

How ever, for those with Nissaya to a better useful is: How to address wrong view?

In regard whether such people, associating with outcasts, are avoided as well: As in regard of Vinaya and rules of Monks, yes, they have to. Different, to those who are not instructed may tell, there are firm rules to separate those with wrong views and bad conducts out or to be avoided.

In areas of fools, naturally wise and Dhamma gets censured, yes. Recognizing such is also a strong sign saying: "run away". So one should take care with whom one associates and in which spheres you get involved. Smell last long and you might not that independent from support of wise as you may think for now. Sure, one might get avoided by bad people, even people once near, but as the Buddha told:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom.

To address a possible misunderstanding of the meaning of "avoiding". Such is not done because one does not like certain people but all what an act of compassion, for others and oneself can effort. If not avoiding it would either hurt you or someone else. Leaving a field where one can not contribute helpful since no capability to receive is present, does no mean that a serious with of goodwill and compassion is not even the reason for such an act.

It's also not so that one should cut off such relations for ever and close others doors. If one is willing to see ones faults, to confess ones previous wrong views and resolves to change his/her way, it would be (at least if following Vinaya) a fault not to forgive and reinstall someone who was lost.

As such as avoiding or leaving can have huge impact, one should of cause prove the situation well and possible also ask wise people for guidance and measures of how to get it rightly judged. One can not always trust ones moods and preoccupations may cause shadows that one does not see clear.

May it be of help for those who tend to think that community-harmony and unity in big scale is the highest, those who have strong attachments toward socializing with many and those who tend to sacrifices what maybe would be need for oneself for the sake of losing a glass of pure water by poring it into a muddy sea. 
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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