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Talkbox

2019 Jun 26 01:07:18
Johann: Good to hear

2019 Jun 25 16:22:42
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី Norum  :D _/\_

2019 Jun 25 12:48:21
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 25 05:02:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 25 01:34:59
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:36
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:17
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 23 19:01:54
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 17 10:19:29
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara. Everything fine, health? Can he walk like before already?

2019 Jun 17 06:34:44
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 17 03:56:38
Cheav Villa: សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 17 00:46:14
Khemakumara: May all have a joy-full and fruit-full  Uposatha full-moon day

2019 Jun 15 17:53:43
Cheav Villa: កូណាព្រះអង្គទាំងអស់គ្នាសុខទុក្ខធម្មតា ទាំងសុខភាពឈឺ ជា មិនទៀងទាត់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ ស្រីមុខក្រញ៉ូវ គាត់មានសុខភាពល្អជា

2019 Jun 15 13:03:21
Johann: All health?

2019 Jun 15 13:02:56
Johann: Nyom Muk-kamau?

2019 Jun 15 13:01:36
Johann: And own well-being, family?

2019 Jun 15 12:48:22
Johann: Maybe all busy like most at this times.

2019 Jun 15 12:44:14
Cheav Villa: បងពុទ្ធី និងវិធូរ ខ្ញុំកូណាមិនបានជួបគ្នា និងទាក់ទងគ្នាទេ ប៉ុន្មានខែចុងក្រោយនេះ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 12:42:16
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 04:21:08
Johann: Nyom Villa. All fine? Nyoms fellows, like Nyom Buddhi... havn't been seen since longer. All fine with friends and family?

2019 Jun 10 04:05:23
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 10 01:47:04
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 10 01:28:53
Khemakumara: May all have a fruitful waxing moon Uposatha!

2019 Jun 10 01:26:44
Khemakumara: Silena sugatiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to a good destination.  Silena bhoga-sampadā.  Through virtue is wealth attained.  Silena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding.  Tasmā silaṁ visodhaye. Therefore we should purify our virtue.

2019 Jun 06 14:52:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ kana,  Bhante. The wound heals fast and good.

2019 Jun 06 13:46:02
Johann: Bhante is fine, at least better?

2019 Jun 05 11:53:33
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 05 05:19:35
Johann: "N'atthi santi param sukham", there is no peace equal the hail of release

2019 Jun 04 10:25:51
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jun 04 05:13:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 12:03:42
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 00:29:09
Johann: May all enjoy the bliss of the fruitful observing of the Uposatha

2019 May 31 14:40:02
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​ សាធុ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 13:47:09
Johann: Sadhu and Anumodana Nyom.

2019 May 31 12:40:14
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាសះស្បើយ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 12:39:05
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គKhemakumara ត្រូវបានពុទ្ធបរិស័ទនិមន្តទៅគ្លីនីកនៅជិតវត្តកាលពីម៉ោង​2 និងបានវះកាត់ព្យាបាល រួចត្រឡប់ទៅវត្ត

2019 May 31 12:36:20
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ ព្រះ​អង្គ​ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 29 09:03:01
Johann: Had overseen Bhante here. Bhante Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 29 02:19:33
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 28 04:18:48
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 27 10:03:55
Johann: Much in German, Nyom, currently. Atma will try to translate as much as possible, step by step.

2019 May 26 03:04:21
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 26 03:04:06
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​

2019 May 26 01:02:17
Johann: Sadhu

2019 May 26 00:44:22
Khemakumara: May all have a meritful Uposatha day. Meeting some good friends (kalyanamitta) and som(e) sil(a) សំម សីល!

2019 May 24 14:13:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 24 13:28:52
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 05:23:33
Johann: Venerable

2019 May 24 05:22:57
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann

2019 May 24 02:08:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa.

2019 May 24 01:55:56
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 24 01:54:14
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 24 01:49:43
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 01:06:04
Johann: Venerable Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 20 04:14:26
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 20 01:31:27
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Indannano

2019 May 19 11:28:39
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 19 11:27:48
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 23:55:08
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 18 10:34:49
amanaki: Thank you Johann  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:59:33
Johann: Nyom Amanaki. Mudita that you may have possible found what searched for on a special day.

2019 May 18 09:24:56
Maria:  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:24:35
Maria: werter Bhante!

2019 May 18 09:22:43
Johann: Nyom Mizi

2019 May 18 09:21:31
Johann: Nyom Sophorn, Nyom Villa... may all here but also there rejoice in own and others goodness.

2019 May 18 05:03:47
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 02:16:49
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 14 07:51:30
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 May 14 05:40:54
Johann: As long as not using telefon while riding. Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2019 May 13 18:38:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ (sitting in Taxi)

2019 May 12 15:44:32
Johann: But better ask Nyom Chanroth, since Atma does not walk that far these days.

2019 May 12 15:04:01
Johann: not teally, Nyom Vithou. Still less water in the streams here. Some still dry. Needs a while down from the mountains and not that much rain yet.

2019 May 12 14:54:37
Vithou: how is the road Bhante? Is it float at the mountain leg?

2019 May 12 14:51:59
Vithou:   _/\_

2019 May 12 14:40:43
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Nothing special. Yes, rain is present every afternoon since some days.

2019 May 12 14:38:33
Vithou: Bhante, how is everything at Asrum? Is it raining everyday?

2019 May 12 07:05:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 12 03:58:19
Johann: a joyful day in merits on this Sila-day

2019 May 11 17:04:10
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_

2019 May 11 16:16:56
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 11 05:35:39
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 11 00:52:44
Johann: an meritful Uposatha, those keeping it today

2019 May 10 17:14:43
Moritz: Chom reap leah, I am going to work. _/\_

2019 May 10 17:09:07
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 10 17:07:14
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 10 16:19:14
Moritz: Chom reap sour, bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 07 19:12:10
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Just some hours ago, thought of him.

2019 May 05 04:26:53
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 11:41:08
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 10:27:38
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 03 10:08:09
Khemakumara: Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 03 01:17:53
Johann: A meritful new moon Uposatha those celebrating it today.

2019 May 03 01:16:05
Johann: Talk box is buggy and lines love to jump. Better not editing.

2019 May 03 01:14:19
Johann: U Chanroth: "ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំបាទ បានទទួលនៅសម្ភារៈមួយចំនួន សម្រាប់កសាងអាស្រមថ្មទូកសូមជូនបុណ្យដល់ពុទ្ធបរិសទ័ទាំងអស់គ

2019 May 02 15:15:58
Cheav Villa:   <.I.> _/\_

2019 May 02 15:15:17
Cheav Villa: Sorry because of kh font doesn't run well on my phone. Kana go to edit  to see the right  shout but  was wrong by deleting Pou  Chanroth 's  shout

2019 May 02 15:01:04
Cheav Villa: Mudita  :) _/\_

2019 May 02 13:47:17
Moritz: Anumodana puñña kusala! _/\_

2019 May 01 14:49:38
Johann: Now some monks are so close to many, that they can be visited even by feet.

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Author Topic: [Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?  (Read 334 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] What's the effect of association with outcasts?
« on: May 22, 2019, 11:22:45 AM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Venerable Members of the Sangha,
Venerable Fellows,

Honored Buddha Parisata,
Valued Upasaka, Upasika,
Interested,

May those advanced and skilled in Dhamma, out of compassion, correct my persons mistakes and possible fill up with missing explaining if not well presented.

What's the effect of association with outcasts?

Even if out of "compassion", what's the effect of association with outcasts , even appear as "family-member" of such?

What's the effect of being related to those who are actually turned over the bowl?

Associate with thieves, slander, people who speak in dispraise of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gratitude, generosity, virtue... those who use generosity to offend the giver... with no regard for hospitality, training, teacher, faith...

Do they risk to be avoided likewise by the wise and good?

How are people adviced to act in regard of outcasts? To bear such, or to avoid any association or ways that look like as if?


- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

From the Sutta Nipata: The famouse Mangala sutta , the highest blessings, starts with:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Asevanā ca bālānaṃ paṇḍitānañca sevanā, Pūjā ca pūjanīyānaṃ etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ. The Buddha: Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection.

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The vicious are dear to him. He likes not the virtuous; he approves the teachings of the ill-natured — this is the cause of his downfall.


There is no more clear advice in regard of association, then in regard of fools, outcasts and bad friends, since it is the only outer condition of either growth or downfall. A clear "Not to do! When ever traced"

To take such even as advisor, a person of wrong view, or dwell in areas where "outcasts" even get a lot of reputation, shows just the natural flow of those possible never will meet the good teachings. Becoming and resist there one cultivates many "enemies" and increases suffering for both, others and oneself.

While such as pain, harsh words... is something that one should endurance, fools are to be avoided:

   

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.

So even if there is the danger to be suspected associating with such!

Since association has (even not recognized) extreme fast impart one oneself, nothing more is urged, as outer needed condition, as to avoid evil people and wrong view.

There is not a single account to be found, that the Buddha and wise advice in ways of seeing it easy, but the opposite.

Even in regard of people how are actually no more able to fall down, who could resist under people with wrong views, or in regard of simply dwelling near, the Buddha advised not to do such, because at least one could be suspect to associate and would therefore be avoided by good people and one gives a sample for others who might be not that strong to resist for themselves.

A well-known simile in regard of assiciation is that of a banana leave taking on the smell of fermented fish.

The fermentation of foolish compassion with people who can actually only be helped by avoiding, if, effects for one not only the reputation of being not firm in faith of the Buddhas advises but also the circumstance to be suspected being another of those outcasts, one who approves their ways.

Even under recluses:

       

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Bhikkhus, these three persons are evident in the world. Which three? A certain person should be loathed, should not be associated. The second should be looked after not associated and the third should be associated. Bhikkhus, which person should be loathed and not associated. Here a certain person is unvirtuous, with evil thoughts like rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out. Bhikkhus, this kind of person should be loathed, should not be associated. What is the reason? In some way if this person is not imitated, ill fame spreads, this is an evil friend, an associate of evil. Just as a serpent with excreta on its body would not sting anyone, for he smears excreta. In the same manner an unvirtuous person with evil thoughts similar to rubbish, with secret actions, with only a promise to recluseship, festering inside and filth oozing out should be loathed, should not be associated.

More on friendship and association here: Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata.
 


Whether one is capable to trace of what is good or bad, aside of the prerequisite of being informed, is of course a matter of ones Upanissaya and tendency, and nobody, at least, could those by their tendencies destined to bad association, help out. Not even the Sublime Buddha.

How ever, for those with Nissaya to a better useful is: How to address wrong view?

In regard whether such people, associating with outcasts, are avoided as well: As in regard of Vinaya and rules of Monks, yes, they have to. Different, to those who are not instructed may tell, there are firm rules to separate those with wrong views and bad conducts out or to be avoided.

In areas of fools, naturally wise and Dhamma gets censured, yes. Recognizing such is also a strong sign saying: "run away". So one should take care with whom one associates and in which spheres you get involved. Smell last long and you might not that independent from support of wise as you may think for now. Sure, one might get avoided by bad people, even people once near, but as the Buddha told:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom.

To address a possible misunderstanding of the meaning of "avoiding". Such is not done because one does not like certain people but all what an act of compassion, for others and oneself can effort. If not avoiding it would either hurt you or someone else. Leaving a field where one can not contribute helpful since no capability to receive is present, does no mean that a serious with of goodwill and compassion is not even the reason for such an act.

It's also not so that one should cut off such relations for ever and close others doors. If one is willing to see ones faults, to confess ones previous wrong views and resolves to change his/her way, it would be (at least if following Vinaya) a fault not to forgive and reinstall someone who was lost.

As such as avoiding or leaving can have huge impact, one should of cause prove the situation well and possible also ask wise people for guidance and measures of how to get it rightly judged. One can not always trust ones moods and preoccupations may cause shadows that one does not see clear.

May it be of help for those who tend to think that community-harmony and unity in big scale is the highest, those who have strong attachments toward socializing with many and those who tend to sacrifices what maybe would be need for oneself for the sake of losing a glass of pure water by poring it into a muddy sea. 
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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