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Talkbox

2019 Aug 22 12:53:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Aug 22 10:04:46
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Aug 22 10:01:05
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Aug 21 10:59:03
Johann: May Sukha come to fulfillment, Nyom.

2019 Aug 21 10:44:55
Moritz: Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_ I have some other stuff to do now and will come back later. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 21 09:15:49
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 21 08:22:24
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 20 11:46:26
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 20 11:25:55
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Aug 16 12:51:30
Johann: Does she have any technical difficulty? Just because such could be.

2019 Aug 16 12:50:14
Johann: Nyom Anneliese

2019 Aug 15 04:29:20
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Aug 15 03:49:34
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 15 00:36:44
Johann: A blessed full moon Upusatha and much joy in merits

2019 Aug 11 14:35:01
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka! Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann, Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!

2019 Aug 11 14:32:29
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Aug 11 14:14:46
Johann: Nyom Mohan

2019 Aug 11 07:32:16
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 11 01:15:57
Johann: Nothing much burdensome this time, Nyom Villa.

2019 Aug 10 16:42:46
Cheav Villa: How is Bhante health?  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 10 16:28:44
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 10 15:04:44
Johann: Nyom Vithou, Nyom Villa

2019 Aug 08 02:03:56
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 08 01:32:20
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ sadhu

2019 Aug 08 00:29:15
Johann: A blessed Uposatha-Sila-observation day and much recoicing with ones beauty investments and gains.

2019 Aug 03 01:35:23
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 03 01:09:55
Moritz: (or morning...)

2019 Aug 03 01:09:31
Moritz: Good evening, Bhante _/\_

2019 Aug 02 08:54:49
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 02 07:30:06
Johann: Once really going for refuge, such is ensured.

2019 Aug 02 07:28:16
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Aug 02 07:04:04
Cheav Villa: May all suffering being healed under the refuge of the three gems _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:36:31
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:41
Moritz: (going to sleep now) _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:24
Moritz: _/\_

2019 Aug 02 05:28:21
Moritz: Good morning, Bhante, bong Villa!

2019 Aug 02 01:37:32
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Aug 02 01:32:14
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 31 12:20:23
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 Jul 31 12:02:09
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 31 12:01:42
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 31 04:38:59
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 31 01:32:33
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jul 31 01:12:19
Khemakumara: May all have a meritful, fruitful full moon uposatha

2019 Jul 31 01:09:55
Khemakumara: May the Buddha Parisā live  united, in harmony,  in accordance with the dhamma vinaya of the Buddha.

2019 Jul 30 15:48:19
Johann: Upasaka Jens

2019 Jul 29 05:58:57
Johann: Dhammata, Nyom

2019 Jul 28 19:00:12
Vithou: Everything fine with me. What about Bhante?  _/\_

2019 Jul 28 18:58:39
Vithou: kana bhante.

2019 Jul 28 16:26:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 28 16:19:49
Johann: Over 1100 fine material visitor at the same time. Mudita and a blessed mindful night.

2019 Jul 28 14:14:10
Johann: over 700 "Devas" following Nyom Villa currently here  :) maybe they will reach 1000 today.

2019 Jul 27 17:54:39
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Everthing fine for him?

2019 Jul 27 17:44:50
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jul 27 16:20:40
Johann: Upasaka Vinz

2019 Jul 24 23:34:36
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 24 13:21:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Jul 24 13:10:12
Johann: May all spend a blessed Sila day

2019 Jul 19 17:04:51
Johann: Master Moritz. Much joy with good undertakings.

2019 Jul 19 17:01:59
Moritz: and off to work _/\_

2019 Jul 19 17:01:42
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 16 09:09:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ sadhu

2019 Jul 16 02:34:51
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 16 01:43:24
Johann: A meritful and joyful Fullmoo Uposatha obervance today!

2019 Jul 10 05:42:38
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2019 Jul 10 02:06:05
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 10 02:02:27
Johann: May all spend a blessed Sila-day today, engaging much in good deeds.

2019 Jul 09 11:04:55
Johann: A meritful rest of Sila-day, those who observe it today.

2019 Jul 07 06:03:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 06 14:38:48
Mohan Gnanathilake: Dear The Most Reverend Samanera Johann, Dhamma Greetings from Sri Lanka!

2019 Jul 06 14:38:26
Mohan Gnanathilake: Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann, Dhamma Grüße an Sie aus Sri Lanka!                                                                                                                                 

2019 Jul 06 14:11:36
Johann: Nyom Mohan

2019 Jul 06 13:15:40
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 06 13:03:25
Johann: Kana will try to send the other half of bag as well as "tnam luvin".

2019 Jul 06 12:57:40
Johann: Half the bag, 7 pills, leaded fast to cure.

2019 Jul 06 12:56:05
Johann: Kana wondered about eye and head ache, later reading that viruse, if on head, easy can damage both.

2019 Jul 06 12:54:26
Johann: Kana had to use anti-biotica (augumentine) of which was still left

2019 Jul 06 12:29:25
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ good state of mind.  The infection of the skin isn't already healed but getting better day by day.

2019 Jul 06 12:18:09
Johann: Bhante. Already good healthy again?

2019 Jul 06 12:12:21
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 Jul 06 12:11:55
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann

2019 Jul 06 11:46:47
Khemakumara: Nyom Vinz

2019 Jul 06 06:21:33
Johann: Sokh chomreoun Nyom

2019 Jul 06 04:29:33
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 05 12:27:20
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Jul 05 07:51:59
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 05 06:52:40
Khemakumara: Today isn't a"full moon"uposatha,  but nevertheless it can be also a"full heart"day of observance and sila.

2019 Jul 04 16:42:58
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Jul 04 16:22:16
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Jul 02 04:43:47
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jul 02 02:04:50
Johann: A blessed and meritful new-moon Uposatha

2019 Jul 01 06:43:03
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jul 01 04:09:06
Johann: May those undertaking the Uposatha today spend the new-moon joyfull with much merits.

2019 Jun 26 01:07:18
Johann: Good to hear

2019 Jun 25 16:22:42
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី Norum  :D _/\_

2019 Jun 25 12:48:21
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 25 05:02:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 25 01:34:59
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:36
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:17
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: The meaning of the "Four great references", the source mentioned.  (Read 7684 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Venerable members of the Sangha,
Venerable fellows,

valued Upasaka, Upasika
Buddha-parisata,

"entertaining" here another time for a good, or follow the ways of the Noble-Ones, to often discuss and cross-question matters wit each other (even if practical no more required for the questioner, the asked or even both):

Venerable Ariyadhammika - while discussing matters on Vinaya, better on certain usuals in the practice of Duthangas - generously shared the four great references mentioned in AN 4.180 and DN16. Asked if Bhante might be pleased and approves further detail investigation of the meaning of the Sutta, if he would like to help here, he stayed silent. Staying silent my person assumes it as being an acceptance and so would like to invite foremost the Theras and Venerables, coming in touch with the topic, to help, out of compassion, to get a good understanding of the meaning.

Here the translated and given part from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (my person has current no possibility to supply with a, for the Sangha, given-to-make-use-of-it-translation on AN 4.180.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

Here it has been said, delivered (my person hopes that he had traced the right Pali-section for it as well):

Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline...

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Tāni ce sutte otāriyamānāni vinaye sandassiyamānāni sutte ceva otaranti vinaye ca sandissanti, niṭṭhamettha gantabbaṃ – ‘addhā, idaṃ tassa bhagavato vacanaṃ arahato sammāsambuddhassa; tesañca therānaṃ suggahita’nti.
[/bockq]

What is the meaning of "one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline", how should this be understood. What counts as source of Sutta (Dhamma), source of Vinaya? What is meant by "this is the Blessed One's utterance"?

Related to it my person comes a Sutta to mind, where people criticized another to do not recite the texts of the Buddha, the Buddha never said this, and the Buddha declared that what ever dhammic teaching a Noble person would give, would count as said by the Buddha.

(My person just did not remember the name of it, Nyom Moritz once quoted it in the talk-box in relation of "proving another attainments from time to time, and proving ones own", which was advocated by the criticized person and rejected to have not been told by the Buddha.)

Related to it also a certain structure of relay-ability comes to mind, starting with the lowest trustworthy source, ones own opinion, goes on to a knower of one book, two, three, then one who has mastered the Jhanas, Streamenter, Oncereturner... and finally the Arahat as highest kind of teacher, relay-ability (parts of this comment might have it's origin in the commentaries).

In how far can all this be possible adopted to merely literary sources most might have access? Would just relay on literary sources give even the possibility to prove within this standards, lacking on refined sources find only by Noble Ones?

My person hopes he could give here useful anchors to investigate this topic as well as hints on slippery tracks possible to use by defilement to take them as an anchor.

May the Venerable Ones, out of compassion, help to get a good and most proper understanding of the meaning, while providing a way of thinking suitable for possible many states of developments of wisdom and attentivity.

May who ever knowledgeable, or tracing good accounts, feel free of giving into this topic here.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:15:52 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Kana could find the mentioned Sutta, in regard of "What counts as the words of the Buddha"

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Uttara Sutta

On one occasion Ven. Uttara was staying in Mahisavatthu [Water Buffalo Ground] on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika. There he addressed the monks:

“Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.”

Now on that occasion the Great King Vessavana had gone from the north to the south on some business or other. He heard Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: “Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.” So — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — the Great King Vessavana disappeared from Dhavajalika on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Mahisavatthu and reappeared among the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three. Then he went to Sakka the deva-king and, on arrival, said, “You should know, dear sir, that Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others.'”

So Sakka the deva-king — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — disappeared from the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three and reappeared in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika in Ven. Uttara's presence. Then he went to Ven. Uttara and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he said to Ven. Uttara, “Is it true, venerable sir, that Ven. Uttara is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others'?”

“Yes, deva-king.”

“But is this Ven. Uttara's own extemporaneous invention, or is it the saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One?”

“Very well, then, deva-king, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it's through an analogy that observant people can understand the meaning of what is being said. Suppose that not far from a village or town there was a great pile of grain, from which a great crowd of people were carrying away grain on their bodies, on their heads, in their laps, or in their cupped hands. If someone were to approach that great crowd of people and ask them, 'From where are you carrying away grain?' answering in what way would that great crowd of people answer so as to be answering rightly?”

“Venerable sir, they would answer, 'We are carrying it from that great pile of grain,' so as to be answering rightly.”

“In the same way, deva-king, whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.”

“Amazing, venerable sir. Astounding, venerable sir — how well that has been said by Ven. Uttara: 'Whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.' *(1) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha on Vulture Peak Mountain, not long after Devadatta's departure. There, referring to Devadatta, he addressed the monks: 'Monks, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.

”'Conquered by eight untrue dhammas, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. Which eight?

“'Conquered by material gain, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

”'Conquered by lack of material gain…

“'Conquered by status…

”'Conquered by lack of status…

“'Conquered by offerings…

”'Conquered by lack of offerings…

“'Conquered by evil ambition…

”'Conquered by evil friendship, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

“'Monks, it's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain. It's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.

”'And for what compelling reason should a monk keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship? Because when one dwells not having conquered any arisen material gain, effluents arise, along with vexations & fevers. But when one dwells having conquered any arisen material gain, those effluents, vexations, & fevers are not.

[Similarly with any arisen lack of material gain, any arisen status, any arisen lack of status, any arisen offerings, any arisen lack of offerings, any arisen evil ambition, & any arisen evil friendship.]

“'It's for this compelling reason that a monk should keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship.

”'Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.' That's how you should train yourselves.' *

“Up to now, Ven. Uttara, the four companies — monks, nuns, lay men, & lay women — have not established this Dhamma-discourse among human beings. Take up this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Master this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Remember this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Connected with the goal is this Dhamma-discourse, and basic to the holy life!”

One may ask why my person told "what is said by Noble Ones" above and not just "what is well said. As made clear here in the not out of reason following part on Devatatta, only one who has overcome the 8 wordily dhammas, has abound maccariya, only such lies withing the "great pile of grain", while what is pound to the 8 wordily Dhammas, originated there, can not provide release.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:10:45 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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 _/\_
Okasa Bhante Ariyadhammika ,

having taken leave, having just given a teaching, my person thought that it is not only very related to the topic here, but would like to ask Bhante, if he would be that generous to investigate the statements, prove them, and possible enlarge, correct or rebuke them, not at least for the  main topics understanding here.
May Bhante, if his circumstances allow it and no burden for his own practice, out of compassion for many, take on a critical inspection of the taught, so that the Buddha, his Dhamma, the worthy Sangha, would not misinterpreted and many could benefit from it.

Here the taught, just short time ago delivered: [Q&A] Could someone teach the Dhamma better then the Buddha?

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This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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