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Talkbox

2019 Jun 26 01:07:18
Johann: Good to hear

2019 Jun 25 16:22:42
Cheav Villa: ជំរាបសួរបងស្រី Norum  :D _/\_

2019 Jun 25 12:48:21
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 25 05:02:43
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 25 01:34:59
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:36
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 25 01:34:17
Johann: May all spend a blessed meritful Sila observing day today

2019 Jun 23 19:01:54
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Jun 17 10:19:29
Johann: Bhante Khemakumara. Everything fine, health? Can he walk like before already?

2019 Jun 17 06:34:44
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 17 03:56:38
Cheav Villa: សាធុ សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 17 00:46:14
Khemakumara: May all have a joy-full and fruit-full  Uposatha full-moon day

2019 Jun 15 17:53:43
Cheav Villa: កូណាព្រះអង្គទាំងអស់គ្នាសុខទុក្ខធម្មតា ទាំងសុខភាពឈឺ ជា មិនទៀងទាត់  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ ស្រីមុខក្រញ៉ូវ គាត់មានសុខភាពល្អជា

2019 Jun 15 13:03:21
Johann: All health?

2019 Jun 15 13:02:56
Johann: Nyom Muk-kamau?

2019 Jun 15 13:01:36
Johann: And own well-being, family?

2019 Jun 15 12:48:22
Johann: Maybe all busy like most at this times.

2019 Jun 15 12:44:14
Cheav Villa: បងពុទ្ធី និងវិធូរ ខ្ញុំកូណាមិនបានជួបគ្នា និងទាក់ទងគ្នាទេ ប៉ុន្មានខែចុងក្រោយនេះ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 12:42:16
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំព្រះអង្គ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 15 04:21:08
Johann: Nyom Villa. All fine? Nyoms fellows, like Nyom Buddhi... havn't been seen since longer. All fine with friends and family?

2019 Jun 10 04:05:23
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 10 01:47:04
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2019 Jun 10 01:28:53
Khemakumara: May all have a fruitful waxing moon Uposatha!

2019 Jun 10 01:26:44
Khemakumara: Silena sugatiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to a good destination.  Silena bhoga-sampadā.  Through virtue is wealth attained.  Silena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding.  Tasmā silaṁ visodhaye. Therefore we should purify our virtue.

2019 Jun 06 14:52:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ kana,  Bhante. The wound heals fast and good.

2019 Jun 06 13:46:02
Johann: Bhante is fine, at least better?

2019 Jun 05 11:53:33
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 05 05:19:35
Johann: "N'atthi santi param sukham", there is no peace equal the hail of release

2019 Jun 04 10:25:51
Johann: Nyom Villa

2019 Jun 04 05:13:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 12:03:42
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Jun 02 00:29:09
Johann: May all enjoy the bliss of the fruitful observing of the Uposatha

2019 May 31 14:40:02
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​ សាធុ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 13:47:09
Johann: Sadhu and Anumodana Nyom.

2019 May 31 12:40:14
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាសះស្បើយ  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 31 12:39:05
Cheav Villa: ព្រះអង្គKhemakumara ត្រូវបានពុទ្ធបរិស័ទនិមន្តទៅគ្លីនីកនៅជិតវត្តកាលពីម៉ោង​2 និងបានវះកាត់ព្យាបាល រួចត្រឡប់ទៅវត្ត

2019 May 31 12:36:20
Cheav Villa: ថ្វាយបង្គំ​ ព្រះ​អង្គ​ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 29 09:03:01
Johann: Had overseen Bhante here. Bhante Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 29 02:19:33
Khemakumara: Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 28 04:18:48
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 27 10:03:55
Johann: Much in German, Nyom, currently. Atma will try to translate as much as possible, step by step.

2019 May 26 03:04:21
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 26 03:04:06
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​

2019 May 26 01:02:17
Johann: Sadhu

2019 May 26 00:44:22
Khemakumara: May all have a meritful Uposatha day. Meeting some good friends (kalyanamitta) and som(e) sil(a) សំម សីល!

2019 May 24 14:13:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 24 13:28:52
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 05:23:33
Johann: Venerable

2019 May 24 05:22:57
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann

2019 May 24 02:08:29
Johann: Nyom Moritz, Nyom Villa.

2019 May 24 01:55:56
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 24 01:54:14
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 24 01:49:43
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 24 01:06:04
Johann: Venerable Ariyadhammika  _/\_

2019 May 20 04:14:26
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 20 01:31:27
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Indannano

2019 May 19 11:28:39
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 19 11:27:48
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 23:55:08
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 18 10:34:49
amanaki: Thank you Johann  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:59:33
Johann: Nyom Amanaki. Mudita that you may have possible found what searched for on a special day.

2019 May 18 09:24:56
Maria:  _/\_

2019 May 18 09:24:35
Maria: werter Bhante!

2019 May 18 09:22:43
Johann: Nyom Mizi

2019 May 18 09:21:31
Johann: Nyom Sophorn, Nyom Villa... may all here but also there rejoice in own and others goodness.

2019 May 18 05:03:47
Cheav Villa: សាធុ​សាធុ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 18 02:16:49
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 14 07:51:30
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 May 14 05:40:54
Johann: As long as not using telefon while riding. Sokh chomreoun, Nyom.

2019 May 13 18:38:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ (sitting in Taxi)

2019 May 12 15:44:32
Johann: But better ask Nyom Chanroth, since Atma does not walk that far these days.

2019 May 12 15:04:01
Johann: not teally, Nyom Vithou. Still less water in the streams here. Some still dry. Needs a while down from the mountains and not that much rain yet.

2019 May 12 14:54:37
Vithou: how is the road Bhante? Is it float at the mountain leg?

2019 May 12 14:51:59
Vithou:   _/\_

2019 May 12 14:40:43
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Nothing special. Yes, rain is present every afternoon since some days.

2019 May 12 14:38:33
Vithou: Bhante, how is everything at Asrum? Is it raining everyday?

2019 May 12 07:05:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 12 03:58:19
Johann: a joyful day in merits on this Sila-day

2019 May 11 17:04:10
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_

2019 May 11 16:16:56
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 11 05:35:39
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 11 00:52:44
Johann: an meritful Uposatha, those keeping it today

2019 May 10 17:14:43
Moritz: Chom reap leah, I am going to work. _/\_

2019 May 10 17:09:07
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2019 May 10 17:07:14
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 May 10 16:19:14
Moritz: Chom reap sour, bong Villa _/\_

2019 May 07 19:12:10
Johann: Nyom Vithou. Just some hours ago, thought of him.

2019 May 05 04:26:53
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 11:41:08
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 04 10:27:38
Khemakumara: Nyom Cheav Villa

2019 May 03 10:08:09
Khemakumara: Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 May 03 01:17:53
Johann: A meritful new moon Uposatha those celebrating it today.

2019 May 03 01:16:05
Johann: Talk box is buggy and lines love to jump. Better not editing.

2019 May 03 01:14:19
Johann: U Chanroth: "ថ្ងៃនេះខ្ញុំបាទ បានទទួលនៅសម្ភារៈមួយចំនួន សម្រាប់កសាងអាស្រមថ្មទូកសូមជូនបុណ្យដល់ពុទ្ធបរិសទ័ទាំងអស់គ

2019 May 02 15:15:58
Cheav Villa:   <.I.> _/\_

2019 May 02 15:15:17
Cheav Villa: Sorry because of kh font doesn't run well on my phone. Kana go to edit  to see the right  shout but  was wrong by deleting Pou  Chanroth 's  shout

2019 May 02 15:01:04
Cheav Villa: Mudita  :) _/\_

2019 May 02 13:47:17
Moritz: Anumodana puñña kusala! _/\_

2019 May 01 14:49:38
Johann: Now some monks are so close to many, that they can be visited even by feet.

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Author Topic: The meaning of the "Four great references", the source mentioned.  (Read 325 times)

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Offline Johann

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 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Venerable members of the Sangha,
Venerable fellows,

valued Upasaka, Upasika
Buddha-parisata,

"entertaining" here another time for a good, or follow the ways of the Noble-Ones, to often discuss and cross-question matters wit each other (even if practical no more required for the questioner, the asked or even both):

Venerable Ariyadhammika - while discussing matters on Vinaya, better on certain usuals in the practice of Duthangas - generously shared the four great references mentioned in AN 4.180 and DN16. Asked if Bhante might be pleased and approves further detail investigation of the meaning of the Sutta, if he would like to help here, he stayed silent. Staying silent my person assumes it as being an acceptance and so would like to invite foremost the Theras and Venerables, coming in touch with the topic, to help, out of compassion, to get a good understanding of the meaning.

Here the translated and given part from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (my person has current no possibility to supply with a, for the Sangha, given-to-make-use-of-it-translation on AN 4.180.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

Here it has been said, delivered (my person hopes that he had traced the right Pali-section for it as well):

Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline...

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Tāni ce sutte otāriyamānāni vinaye sandassiyamānāni sutte ceva otaranti vinaye ca sandissanti, niṭṭhamettha gantabbaṃ – ‘addhā, idaṃ tassa bhagavato vacanaṃ arahato sammāsambuddhassa; tesañca therānaṃ suggahita’nti.
[/bockq]

What is the meaning of "one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline", how should this be understood. What counts as source of Sutta (Dhamma), source of Vinaya? What is meant by "this is the Blessed One's utterance"?

Related to it my person comes a Sutta to mind, where people criticized another to do not recite the texts of the Buddha, the Buddha never said this, and the Buddha declared that what ever dhammic teaching a Noble person would give, would count as said by the Buddha.

(My person just did not remember the name of it, Nyom Moritz once quoted it in the talk-box in relation of "proving another attainments from time to time, and proving ones own", which was advocated by the criticized person and rejected to have not been told by the Buddha.)

Related to it also a certain structure of relay-ability comes to mind, starting with the lowest trustworthy source, ones own opinion, goes on to a knower of one book, two, three, then one who has mastered the Jhanas, Streamenter, Oncereturner... and finally the Arahat as highest kind of teacher, relay-ability (parts of this comment might have it's origin in the commentaries).

In how far can all this be possible adopted to merely literary sources most might have access? Would just relay on literary sources give even the possibility to prove within this standards, lacking on refined sources find only by Noble Ones?

My person hopes he could give here useful anchors to investigate this topic as well as hints on slippery tracks possible to use by defilement to take them as an anchor.

May the Venerable Ones, out of compassion, help to get a good and most proper understanding of the meaning, while providing a way of thinking suitable for possible many states of developments of wisdom and attentivity.

May who ever knowledgeable, or tracing good accounts, feel free of giving into this topic here.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:15:52 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Kana could find the mentioned Sutta, in regard of "What counts as the words of the Buddha"

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Uttara Sutta

On one occasion Ven. Uttara was staying in Mahisavatthu [Water Buffalo Ground] on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika. There he addressed the monks:

“Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.”

Now on that occasion the Great King Vessavana had gone from the north to the south on some business or other. He heard Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: “Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.” So — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — the Great King Vessavana disappeared from Dhavajalika on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Mahisavatthu and reappeared among the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three. Then he went to Sakka the deva-king and, on arrival, said, “You should know, dear sir, that Ven. Uttara in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others.'”

So Sakka the deva-king — just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm — disappeared from the devas of the Heaven of the Thirty-three and reappeared in Mahisavatthu on Sankheyyaka Mountain in Dhavajalika in Ven. Uttara's presence. Then he went to Ven. Uttara and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he said to Ven. Uttara, “Is it true, venerable sir, that Ven. Uttara is teaching the monks the Dhamma in this way: 'Friends, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings… on the failings of others… on his own attainments… on the attainments of others'?”

“Yes, deva-king.”

“But is this Ven. Uttara's own extemporaneous invention, or is it the saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One?”

“Very well, then, deva-king, I will give you an analogy, for there are cases where it's through an analogy that observant people can understand the meaning of what is being said. Suppose that not far from a village or town there was a great pile of grain, from which a great crowd of people were carrying away grain on their bodies, on their heads, in their laps, or in their cupped hands. If someone were to approach that great crowd of people and ask them, 'From where are you carrying away grain?' answering in what way would that great crowd of people answer so as to be answering rightly?”

“Venerable sir, they would answer, 'We are carrying it from that great pile of grain,' so as to be answering rightly.”

“In the same way, deva-king, whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.”

“Amazing, venerable sir. Astounding, venerable sir — how well that has been said by Ven. Uttara: 'Whatever is well said is all a saying of the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. Adopting it again & again from there do we & others speak.' *(1) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha on Vulture Peak Mountain, not long after Devadatta's departure. There, referring to Devadatta, he addressed the monks: 'Monks, it's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own failings. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the failings of others. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on his own attainments. It's good for a monk periodically to have reflected on the attainments of others.

”'Conquered by eight untrue dhammas, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. Which eight?

“'Conquered by material gain, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

”'Conquered by lack of material gain…

“'Conquered by status…

”'Conquered by lack of status…

“'Conquered by offerings…

”'Conquered by lack of offerings…

“'Conquered by evil ambition…

”'Conquered by evil friendship, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.

“'Monks, it's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain. It's good for a monk to keep conquering again & again any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.

”'And for what compelling reason should a monk keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship? Because when one dwells not having conquered any arisen material gain, effluents arise, along with vexations & fevers. But when one dwells having conquered any arisen material gain, those effluents, vexations, & fevers are not.

[Similarly with any arisen lack of material gain, any arisen status, any arisen lack of status, any arisen offerings, any arisen lack of offerings, any arisen evil ambition, & any arisen evil friendship.]

“'It's for this compelling reason that a monk should keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen evil friendship.

”'Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will keep conquering again & again any arisen material gain… any arisen lack of material gain… any arisen status… any arisen lack of status… any arisen offerings… any arisen lack of offerings… any arisen evil ambition… any arisen evil friendship.' That's how you should train yourselves.' *

“Up to now, Ven. Uttara, the four companies — monks, nuns, lay men, & lay women — have not established this Dhamma-discourse among human beings. Take up this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Master this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Remember this Dhamma-discourse, Ven. Uttara! Connected with the goal is this Dhamma-discourse, and basic to the holy life!”

One may ask why my person told "what is said by Noble Ones" above and not just "what is well said. As made clear here in the not out of reason following part on Devatatta, only one who has overcome the 8 wordily dhammas, has abound maccariya, only such lies withing the "great pile of grain", while what is pound to the 8 wordily Dhammas, originated there, can not provide release.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:10:45 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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