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Author Topic: [Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha?  (Read 15772 times)

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Online Johann

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[Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha?
« on: July 28, 2019, 07:05:43 PM »
[Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha?

Answered previously outward:

householder, interested,

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

my person would not answer how to become, ordain, in what ever tradition, but in regard of the Savaka Sangha, the disciples of the Buddhas, his Sangha of monks.

While it is relatively easy to ordain here or there, it's not that easy to ordain under the real Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

First of all one has to meet the Tripple Gems and perceive them correct (see on how to become "Buddhist" ). Other than just taking refuge, to become a member of the Sangha one needs to have a valid preceptor and a valid procedure. If one ordains under an actually "non-bhikkhu", although he could nevertheless practice good if right perceived and no doubts, one would not have become a valid member of the Sangha (a case most relevant in regard of certain Bhikkhuni ordinations today, for example. Once the lineage died out, there are no means to reestablish a Sangha of the/a Buddha).

If not sure, if having doubts, reasons for doubts, and desire to become a full member of the Budddhas Sangha, it's good to fist seek for going forth as a pabajjita, homeless (usually called Samanera) if meeting a single monk who is perceived as valid and correct member of the Sangha. Later on, if desiring (note that it is not needed to fully ordain to live the holy live toward Arahatship and as Arahat), one can look out for a proper Sangha to ordain (since there are 6 qualified Bhikkhus needed to perform the ceremony) and should of cause always hold up the wish "may I meet the opportunity" or "if meeting the Savakasangha, and given the chance to ordain, I will".

The problem when ordaining incorrect/invalid is that one would be burdened by doubts and so easy be disturbed in regard of remorselessness.

There is/would be also no problem to went into homelessness, asking for the 10 precepts, and practice as wanderer under the Tripple Gems, or even as wanderer, yet not met the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha at all (like for example Ven. Maha Kassapa left home without Nissaya/teacher). If having the right aspiration, aim, to leave home, right Upanissaya, the wish "if there exist those/he who knows the way to liberation, may I meet them/him" the teacher/Sangha will go out forward to one, meeting on half the way.

If fully ordaining under a group of thieves (groups which maintain a copy), and also perceiving the right Sangha as wrong, it could be very dangerous in regard of ones possibility to ordain since one having gained "Bhikkhu-hood" by thief, could no more be ordained in the Sangha. Something that one should take care of if leaving home as wanderer or Samanera: if giving others to think that one is a Bhikkhu of the Buddha for bellies sake, using the Sangha-heritage without being given so, one counts as one having gained by thief and would be no more ordained in this lifetime.

Similar situation is critical if one, coming from another sect, returns to this sect without disrobing.

There is, how ever, not much a problem if not ordained with doubts that this is the right group, even if wrong. Once meeting the right, valid, one could join them.

In regard of detail requirements for ordination, which is not necessary always good in study much, one can look here as a source giving much information: Nissaya

As for what to do, wishing to ordain, if meeting a member of the Buddhas good Sangha, the Sangha or someone related to it: Simply ask devoted, bowing down, three times for leaving home under the Buddhas discipline, and if wishing also to gain full ordination at the same time. Let the rest be the matter of those actually in change.

If no reaction on it, repeat the wish, even daily and if having doubt that you are taken serious, after a good time of patient (note that a adherent of other sects would be observed minimum 4 month before full ordaining, if his attitude ans aspiration is right and old teachers/teachings abound. Most of western would count as such Aliens, so nothing that requires to feel disregarded, but the Bhikkhus duty to do.)

who's involved: first of all, you, with the right aspiration and perception and as for ordaining as Samanera a valid preceptor, as for ordaining as Bhikkhu, a chosen valid Nissaya (mentor/personal teacher), a valid preceptor, a valid Sangha of six valid Bhikkhus, and a valid place (Uposatha-place, within valid Sema/borders), and a valid Ordination - action.

how to contact the respective person: seek out for a valid perceive-able member of the Sangha of the Buddha, and ask for such three times in a devoted way, asking for taking refuge under the Gems and for going forth under them, and possible full ordination in the Sangha of the Buddha.

What is the most prominent way to ordain as a monk?: merits, inclination to what leads to long lasting happiness. It is strong condition (Upanissaya), caused by strong condition causes (-paccaya) of the past and present, which lead one most prominent to ordain as a homeless under the Buddhas teachings, among his straight following disciples and begins with the first highest blessings, to desire for, is not gained, ripen yet:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

[The Buddha:]
  Not consorting with fools,
  consorting with the wise,
  paying homage to those worthy of homage:
      This is the highest protection.

Living in a civilized land,
  having made merit in the past,
  directing oneself rightly:
      This is the highest protection.

Broad knowledge, skill,
  well-mastered discipline,
  well-spoken words:
      This is the highest protection.

Support for one's parents,
  assistance to one's wife and children,
  consistency in one's work:
      This is the highest protection.

Giving, living in rectitude,
  assistance to one's relatives,
  deeds that are blameless:
      This is the highest protection.

Avoiding, abstaining from evil;
  refraining from intoxicants,
  being heedful of the qualities of the mind:
      This is the highest protection.

Respect, humility,
  contentment, gratitude,
  hearing the Dhamma on timely occasions:
      This is the highest protection.

Patience, compliance,
  seeing contemplatives,
  discussing the Dhamma on timely occasions:
      This is the highest protection.... (Mangala Sutta — Protection )

It's very, very seldom that a Buddha and his teachings arise in this world, even more seldom to get in touch and even more seldom to have the conditions for such a possibility to get in touch gained, so don't waste time if this auspicious change and kusala mind is met, since nothing last aside of the highest gain.

If missing conditions yet, strong desire to gain them by efforts, nourishing this possibilities outwardly and inwardly, associating with that headed toward liberation or already freed, will have it's desired effects, sooner or later, even if caught in household outwardly, at least secure at the break up of this body, if having strong faith that house (the six senses) is no refuge and nothing worthy to give into, aside providing, maintaining for the gaining of independence from it one day.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 07:25:51 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Re: [Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 08:04:47 AM »
The problem when ordaining incorrect/invalid is that one would be burdened by doubts and so easy be disturbed in regard of remorselessness.

If fully ordaining under a group of thieves (groups which maintain a copy), and also perceiving the right Sangha as wrong, it could be very dangerous in regard of ones possibility to ordain since one having gained "Bhikkhu-hood" by thief, could no more be ordained in the Sangha.

Bhante Johann,

The Vinaya, which prescribe the rules, protocols and customs to be followed by the Sangha, seems pretty extensive. I wonder how much of it one must know to be able to reconize e distinguish those who are 'thieves' and those who are valid members of the Sangha.

Online Johann

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Re: [Q&A] How to ordain as a monk of the Buddha?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 10:35:59 AM »
Okasa Ven. Members of the Sangha, Ven. Grandfather Varado , Ven. Indaññāno , Ven. Ariyadhammika

Upasaka Danilo, devoted follower of the Gems from Brazil, asked in relation to Kanas previous account:

Bhante Johann,

The Vinaya, which prescribe the rules, protocols and customs to be followed by the Sangha, seems pretty extensive. I wonder how much of it one must know to be able to reconize e distinguish those who are 'thieves' and those who are valid members of the Sangha.

Thinking it's good to do so, that the Venerables may not be touched by possible "hot irons" for then, my person takes leave to address the question. May the Venerables nevertheless point out things which might be an obstacles for long term happiness, out of compassion.

Nyom Danilo ,

Sadhu for investigation.

Also many others, Upasaka Ebo ( saddhamma ) shortly approached the issue. Maybe good generally, to keep in mind, that one always meets what is given. Sometimes it's because giving confused windmill-demons that one has a lot to struggle by oneself with them. Sometimes strong desire for knowledge, yet not really given, makes the knowledge a hindrance.

Generally, one not being part of the Buddhas Sangha yet, has not been given, is not asked by the Buddha, to know much of rules they have, but the opposite.

To display a perceiveable Savaka Sangha in the world is "only" the Sanghas own task at least. So no need to worry about the formal issues but only in regarding of ones perception of the Savaka Sangha heading beyond world. That is possible the most significant mark which makes it much more easier to trace of whom aspires, has objectives in the world, under the use of the Buddhas lables, or just objectives toward release.

In fact, to know to much about the holly life, better the customs, can easily turn aspirants away and this being the reason, the Buddha didn't really allow much informing, and there are even rules that say "not before having gone fort".

Now, many live in the time and perception of many "fakes" and this being the reason the Sangha obiviously decided in their last great meeting in the 1950 to make the heritage more accessable for making prove. Yet of course, the more knowledge doesn't give more release without seeing through the views the heartword is imbedded.

For one leaving home, inspired by the Noble Ones, there is not much special danger and one can be sure that ones old friend, ones merits, approach one half the way of ones search.

So it's totally useless, from my persons point of view, to try to match perfect once by oneself having not a little left home.

If feeling inspired, and especially if it goes against certain grains, if not tracing real fundamental strange things, go on, don't waste time. There are many small Sanghas and not all are for all, but depending on ones Upanissaya.

Here it would be often brought into cooperation with the different followers, disciples, of the single great Venerables, like those attended to Ven.Maha Kassapa, Sariputta, Moggalana, Upali...

It should be not thought that they are of different course.

And one should also remember, that the Buddha preferred merely small, near bound to each others, groups, thinking on the highest benevolence by dewlling of Sotas with Sotas... Arahats with Arahat on ideal level, or wise teacher with wise students, virtuous with virtuous...

In the west or modern World Ven. Maha Kassapa often counts as only ideal. Yet, naturally, that is the smallest group. It wouldn't work, leads to frust, if seeking for this quality in most known and largest groups.

More large ways, following Ven. Sariputta, Moggolana, which are the traditional, are often downgraded in the west. Just think on how much modern world talks on meditation, yet deep ensnared in wrong view, incapacity and aversion against basic merits.

If thinking, while within the train, that changing the class gives a better feeling, fits better to refined perception, there is no problem at all in doing what ever kind of "re-ordination" or "app-additing".
Yet there is also much nonsens going on, often even impure minded, when certain groups or teacher, call others to re-ordain. Even such isn't really necessary if solid perception of the target of refuge.

There are only four grave things which can not be repeared for ones Bhikkhu aspiration, once gained higher ordination within pure and doubtless perceived Sangha, Nissaya, Upajjhāya.

One should keep in mind that neither clear perception nor object related to it, are something lasting, could not change, for not-Arahats.

Generally useful teaching for understanding the matter and how to work on with it, is generously given by Ven. Grandfather Thanissaro in a short dhammic teaching: The Power of Judgment

May it be releasing and hindrances destructing.

Again, aside of seeking refuge and wishing to go forth from common ways under the Refuge, you are not asked to be informed and the rest starts with the "formal" request.

Even here certain groups today argue that the initial request has to follow a given fix pattern, but actually hasn't, yet "just" worry again that nothing is made wrong. Elders, everywhere, usually are very careful to look for the best possible for their children, yet not after gain by accumulation of children at the same time.

Kamma of beings is different, so it wouldn't work like booking an all included holiday from the professional marked, end even then and there booked, not for sure. That's how things are, but by trust in kamma and skillful, relay on what is given, nothing to fear at all in relation to liberation.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 11:16:29 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann