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Talkbox

2020 Jan 18 05:57:52
Johann: A blessed and fruitful Sila day

2020 Jan 17 19:19:18
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2020 Jan 17 18:37:01
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2020 Jan 17 18:14:15
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 17 13:39:36
Sophorn: Many greetings to everyone,

2020 Jan 17 13:39:19
Sophorn:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 17 10:29:19
Johann: "so, now I go up and clear the area a little, make some merits, and I will not share my merits, with anybody..."  ^-^

2020 Jan 17 08:49:11
Chanroth: ធ្វើអាស្រមហើយចេញពីរសេចក្ដីល្អ ធ្វើអ្វីដើម្បីខ្លួល្អជាង

2020 Jan 17 08:45:08
Chanroth: សូមលាហើយ

2020 Jan 17 08:33:16
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 17 06:56:27
Johann: A blessed and fruitful Uposatha, those observing it today.

2020 Jan 17 06:45:45
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Jan 17 06:44:49
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 16 23:01:31
Moritz: Mr. Lew _/\_

2020 Jan 15 14:16:00
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 15 11:15:29
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 15 11:12:01
Johann: Nyom

2020 Jan 15 10:24:02
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Jan 15 10:21:50
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 15 10:11:56
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 12 22:22:36
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2020 Jan 12 22:04:02
Moritz: _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:34:30
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:31:02
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, may happiness come to fullfillment, all

2020 Jan 12 21:27:15
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ Visitor _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:26:54
Cheav Villa:  Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:26:06
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:24:21
Moritz: Visitor _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:24:09
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:23:59
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:23:50
Johann: Good on working isn't a bad reservation. Sokh chomreoun

2020 Jan 12 21:16:12
Cheav Villa: I kana in working conditions in the ministry  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 12 17:24:45
Johann: How is Nyom Villa doing? Seems as if more reserved

2020 Jan 11 21:30:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 11 21:27:10
Johann: On the other side it's just visible for Aramika, so also fine to leave it as it is.

2020 Jan 11 21:18:06
Johann: but possible good to change it, since looking of course strange

2020 Jan 11 21:17:02
Johann: The visitor account, since enail needed, has Atmas email, yes. Nothing wrong, Nyom.

2020 Jan 11 21:10:13
Cheav Villa: Mr. Visitor is using Bhante mail on Sangham ^-^ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 11 17:28:39
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 Jan 11 17:19:29
Johann: Well then. Mudita. And to use old account is also no problem, or a new one.

2020 Jan 11 17:13:25
Visitor:  *sgift* Will return soon. will share one from lot.  :) Stay healthy. Be happy.

2020 Jan 11 17:06:13
Johann: Sure, why not? An also sure that Atma will try what ever possible that Nyom-Deva would take on existance where Dhamma can completely comprehended. My Nyom do as he feels fit and inspired.

2020 Jan 11 17:03:02
Visitor: For I am out of community and practice to be independent too -- decided when couldn't find Gem(liberated one, buddha, venerable).

2020 Jan 11 17:00:13
Visitor: If I share one of those practices, will uncle allow that? Will uncle give way to me to give as a 'Visitor'? Even when it's out of community.

2020 Jan 11 16:57:53
Johann: It's importand to see that liberation is possible, and people having gained independency are met = Savaka Sangha

2020 Jan 11 16:55:26
Johann: It's importand, aside of the deva-messangers, birth, sickness, aging death, to meet the Buddha, Arahat, Samana, so that real Saddha may arise. Books hardly can provide such "it's not just a story"

2020 Jan 11 16:50:04
Visitor: Practice leads to experience -coming slowly-2 me already. Did uncle find any Gems(Ven. Buddha) to associate with?

2020 Jan 11 16:45:42
Johann: Only by practicing and association with the Gems can Dhamma be gained. Consuming 1000 book wouldn't help

2020 Jan 11 16:43:02
Johann: What does one, seeing his decay, keep him from sharing?

2020 Jan 11 16:41:31
Johann: Giving ways to let others give is also a-maccariya

2020 Jan 11 16:39:42
Johann: And books are lasting? Sharing about oldage, sickness and death is teaching the 1 Noble truth very real, or?

2020 Jan 11 16:35:58
Visitor: What does old uncle want to offer when he is also impermanent? Dhamma-it's already in books! Experience-it will come soon to me too.

2020 Jan 11 16:30:29
Johann: If needing something, just let it be known (any language

2020 Jan 11 16:29:50
Johann: Nyom unknown

2020 Jan 11 16:28:47
Visitor:  *thumb* :-\ :( ;-) *gift*

2020 Jan 11 08:13:55
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2020 Jan 11 08:11:25
Moritz: Oh, I just wanted to write something to you, Bong Villa. But now have to go, driving taxi. ^-^ Later. _/\_ Chom reap leah

2020 Jan 11 08:05:56
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 11 07:46:49
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 10 19:57:45
Johann: Bhante

2020 Jan 10 19:37:57
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2020 Jan 10 16:11:19
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 10 12:07:13
Johann: Sokh chomreoun Nyom

2020 Jan 10 11:34:53
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2020 Jan 10 11:08:47
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Jan 10 11:00:22
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 10 06:05:50
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 10 05:02:29
Johann: May those keeping the full moon Uposatha today, spend an auspicious time engaged in merits

2020 Jan 09 20:17:28
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 09 20:07:28
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 09 18:57:51
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Those who have confidence in the Awakened One have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result.

2020 Jan 09 17:33:14
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 09 16:13:20
Johann: No problem at all.

2020 Jan 09 16:12:52
Johann: Atma wrote: Oh, master Moritz celebrates his Birthday today. And if remembering right, just one day before Mastress Sophorn.

2020 Jan 09 16:11:21
Johann:  :)

2020 Jan 09 16:10:58
Johann: oh that is bad: Nyom needs to cite Thor Twai bpngum 5 times

2020 Jan 09 16:09:02
Cheav Villa: I kana sorry for deleted <.I.> _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 09 16:05:44
Cheav Villa: All the best wishes to you Master Moritz  _/\_ :D

2020 Jan 09 08:29:01
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 09 07:08:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu

2020 Jan 09 06:16:07
Johann: A blessed Uposatha those who maintain it today

2020 Jan 09 04:50:31
Khemakumara: Nyom

2020 Jan 08 22:06:08
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2020 Jan 08 21:45:09
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 08 20:55:46
Khemakumara: Nyom

2020 Jan 08 20:47:42
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 08 18:48:15
Johann: Bhante

2020 Jan 08 18:17:17
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 08 15:14:05
Johann: Nyom

2020 Jan 08 14:02:20
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 08 08:04:30
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 07 21:10:49
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu

2020 Jan 07 21:05:36
saddhamma: I hope, Bhante Johann has regained some strength and that Bhante's health is improving.

2020 Jan 07 17:50:15
Johann: 3 robes (2 and 1 two-layer as it may be cold) and if the Sangha, out of compassion would give full ordination before leaving, this would be outstanding blessing for the Sangha, counting a non-returner in their community..

2020 Jan 07 17:45:55
Johann: Plastic robe is also dangerous it not having a proper, and to have some light proper shoes along the way isn't a faul for hard paths through the burning lands.

2020 Jan 07 17:42:18
Johann: It'[ good if both strong Asthmatics have enought and right inhalation spray with them, since strong fires will come soon, althought they feel great for now.

2020 Jan 07 17:38:53
Johann: Start of the Migration periode. May all arrive at asokaṃ khemaṃ soon and with ease

2020 Jan 07 17:24:05
Moritz: On the 11th also, Bong Sophorn is planning to arrive in Phnom Penh _/\_

2020 Jan 07 17:12:57
Cheav Villa: I Kana got from Bangthy, Bhante Khemakumara was told to leave Wat Akyum on the 11th for Thudong.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Author Topic: Stealing and taking what is not given  (Read 2083 times)

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Offline Johann

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Stealing and taking what is not given
« on: September 22, 2019, 06:39:20 AM »
For people relaying on wrong view, the missdeed of "taking what is not given" is hard to trace as thinking in manner of rights, inherent allowance to still desires.

So my person thought to make a topic on the distinction between common laws and common judgement and the breaking of virtue as well as on kammic effects, starting here with this Sutta:

Maybe Bhante Varado likes to join here as well, and share his merits.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

009.04. Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly. What eight?

Attacks those who should not be attacked, takes away without leaving anything, kills women, defiles maidens, plunders the gone forth, plunders the royal treasury, steals in the vicinity and does not have a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly.

Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does it long, does not end up quickly. What eight?

Does not attack those who should not be attacked, does not take away without leaving anything, does not kill women, does not defile maidens, does not plunder the gone forth, does not plunder the royal treasury, does not steal in the vicinity and has a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does it long, does not end up quickly.
Quote from: very simple translation of AN 8.84 by Sister Uppalavanna

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2019, 06:48:09 AM »
Common laws usually measure all kinds of thieves mostly not by the fact that one as taken something under ones control, possession, primarly, but whether another is harmed or not, effected by loose of control over what he regards as his.

Stealing, requires therefore the move away for the owner to be conducted. Taking what is not given, the move toward the taker.

Whether the previous owner knows or not, perceives harm or not, perceives lose or not, once one has taken on something not having been given by deeds or words (kammic also thoughts), it's nevertheless taken on.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2019, 06:53:26 AM »
This is already hard to understand in regard of physical moveable objects, grows harder to be understood if it comes to objects not possible to move, taking land, areas, for example, or status, stand and even more harder and easy confusing when it comes the finer material things possible to copy.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2019, 06:59:57 AM »
As it is hard for the worldling to trace mind as the source of unskillful and as the wordling fails in judging by all kinds of reasonings, wise tried to give ways to cut off defilements by requesting single factors of an undertaking, yet those ways of division it self gives of course again possibilities for defilements to drive in, so at least sacca, much truthfulness by the actor himself is needed, if not crossquestioned by a skilled "judge" who has also the ability of reading, knowing, states of mind in others.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 07:26:51 AM »
The factors to prove are given by wise - it's not sure if the Buddha thought it as useful tool, at least outward of his community laws -  as such:

"Even taking a halm of grass, not given, is a transgression"

- 1) Object: anything belonging to another (human) being or a group of (human) beings.
- 2) Perception: One perceives the object as belonging to another human being or a group of (human) beings.
- 3) Intention: One decides to steal it.
- 4) Effort: One takes it.


My person put "human" under breaks since this regards community laws, precepts, and not to akusala and kamma.

Object should be clear wheather it is moveable physical, not to move like "realities", land, house..., fine material things like digital or written means, non-material things like stands, position.

Perception or "knowledge", cognition. This includes aside of getting known by seen, heard or felt, the understanding as being hold as own by someone or a group. Such "holding as ones own" does not require that something is legal hold as own by someone. Even if it has been brought by depriving, by taking not given on it, it may be someone elses occupation.

Intention should be not mistaken with possible later aim or "for the sake" but simply the thought or objection of bringing the object under ones own control: to take what is not handed over physical or by speech (and thoughts in regard of kamma).

Effort means that one actually acts in this way, takes on it, moves it into or toward his sphere. It doesn't necessarily requires the perception of the previous owner to be moved out of his controll. The matter here is whether one acts in moving it into ones, or toward ones controll, out on of the sphere or border of someones control. Yet it includes also the destruction, depriving of having control over it by the owner.

The last might be the main area where on could confuse stealing (harm of someone perceiveable, countable) and taking what is not given.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 07:38:58 AM by Johann »
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Offline Khemakumara

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 07:45:37 AM »
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Sadhu, Sadhu

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 10:38:40 AM »
Taking of what is not given requires wrong view to be persent. It's not possible to take what is not given when right view is present.

And what is wrong view, as a condition for unskillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds?

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!' He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

This is wrong view, as a condition for unskillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds.

And what is right view, as a condition for skillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds?

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

This is right view, as a condition for skillful deeds by thoughts, signs and deeds.

It is not possible that one acts skillful in the world without right view as forerunner and it's not possible that one acts unskillful in the world without wrong view as forerunner.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:13:25 PM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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Taking what is not given as Element of the Ariyamagga, Path beyond.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2019, 11:09:38 AM »
Taking what is not given as Element of the Ariyamagga, Path beyond.

And what is wrong view which does nevertheless not go beyond the world, being not skillful in ways to be an element of the path?

There is the case where a person regards the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intellect, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control.


This is wrong view which does nevertheless not go beyond the world, being not skillful as a element of the path. Yet it is may be still skillful based on right view objected in the world.

And what is right view which goes beyond the world, being skillful as a element of the path?

There is the case where a person does not regards the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, as real, lasting, a refuge, under ones control. He does not regard the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He does not regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intellect, as real, lasting, a refuge, under his control.


This is right view which goes beyond the world, being skillful as a element of the path. Yet it is may be still unskillful based on wrong view objected in the world.

It is not possible that one relaying on right view as a factor of the path acts unskillful and takes on the senses and their objects as his and under his control. It is therefore that one who has arrived on right view that goes beyond the world, hasn't world as it's object, is incapable to act wrong, unskillful and in ways to  w fall from the path. Yet it is possible that one who uses this transcendent view to reject right view objected on world, acts in ways which do not only close up the path for long time but head him straight downward, into painful realms. Therefore those views are told to be evil wrong views, hard to abound once they have arisen.

It is possible that one relaying on wrong view which is not a factor of the path acts skillful as he takes on the senses and their objects as his and under his control. It is therefore that one who has not arrived on right view that goes beyond the world, hasn't world as it's object, is capable to act right, skillful and in ways toward the path. It is possible that one who does not use this transcendent view to regard right view objected on world, acts in ways which do not close him up the path for long time and heads him straight upwardly, to good existences. Therefore those views are told to be right views, even if not being element of the path.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:15:32 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2019, 11:23:00 AM »
And how can the factor of being there an object be missperceived by wrong view?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, regarding the object, thinks: "This is an object of the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, a refuge refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarde under ones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact hat there is an object. Rejecting that there is an object he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the object.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the object in regard of it's worth: there is nothing thats been to be give, to sacrifies, has no parents, no preparer.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:52:31 AM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »
And how can the factor of perceiving ownership on an object be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, regarding the owner-ship thinks: "This is an object of the eye, the touch on the eye, the object of the eye, form; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, a refuge refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it as there is no owner perceiveable. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intellect, the touch on the intellect, the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarde under ones control, and there is nothing taken when taking on it, as there is no owner perceivable.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is an owner. Rejecting that there is an owner he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the owner.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the owner in regard of it's worth: there is nothing he can hold, to sacrifies, has no parents, no preparer, no owner.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 11:53:29 AM by Johann »
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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2019, 11:51:20 AM »
And how can the factor of perceiving intention on an object be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, is regarding his intention, thinks: "This is an intention on the eye, on the touch on the eye, on the object of the eye, form; on feelings, on consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on intention on touch on the eye, and it is not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under someones control, and so there is no intention of taking when taking on it as there is no one intending, no actor. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the intention on intellect, the intention on touch on the intellect, the intention on the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the intention on intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under ones control, and there is no intendion of taken when taking on it, as there is no one intending, no actor.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is intention. Rejecting that there is an intention he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the owner.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the intention in regard of it's fruits and effects: there are no fruits and results of good or bad intentions, there is no heir of good and bad intentions.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:25:15 PM by Johann »
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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2019, 12:06:36 PM »
And how can the factor of perceiving effort be miss-perceived?

There is the case where a person, desiring on taking on what is not given, on facing it, is regarding his effort, thinks: "This is an effort on the eye, on the touch on the eye, on the object of the eye, form; on feelings, on consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on effort on touch on the eye, and it, the effort, is not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded as there being an actor, and so there is no effort of taking when taking on it as there is no actor. He regards the ear,... sound... nose,... smell... tongue... taste, ... body..., bodily touch... He regard the effort on intellect, the effort on touch on the intellect, the effort on the object of the intellect, thoughts/ideas; feelings, consciousness, will and what ever phenomena arises on touch on the effort on intelect, as not real, not lasting, no refuge, not to be regarded under ones control, and so there is no effort of taken when taking on it, as there is no actor.

This is how one miss-perceives the fact that there is effort. Rejecting that there is an effort he takes on it althought not given and acts evil unskilful in regard of the actor.

Or he acts on relaying on wrong view objected in the world and denies the effort in regard of there being an actor: although there is effort on desire, there is no actor, being there no actor, there is no heir of efforts effects and fruits.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:20:46 PM by Johann »
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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 12:18:27 PM »
Now how does one, in the position of a giver, avoid that others might fall into remorse or a actually into a transgression?

By ways of "Zuvorkommenheit" ("prevenience courtesy", habit of acting before [a wish would arise, be expressed], good if based on obligingness) is most important if wishing for the welfare of others.

It's therefore usual that if a new fellow arises in ones sphere of dwelling (except gross improper behavior is perceived, to the limits of ones fear of loos) to offer by speech the one of all ones possessions and of what can be used without being not given.

Why is the thought alone "oh may he take what ever he needs" not enough alone? Because it might be that someone has doubt, yet nevertheless takes, and although the "giver" had actually mentally agreed, he would nevertheless fall into a transgression.

It's usual that in good societies, if the case arises that one needs to ask, others in relation, being in a situation of duty, would be ashamed if such could happen.

In bad societies, there where the thoughts of wrong view domain, thoughts like "he could act as all of us", "why serving if nobody serves us/me" "only if there is a deal, deeds are well placed", "Zuvorkommenheit" is seen as weakness on both sides. For one side it is a loose of possibilities to win or get others in debts, and for the other side, the receiver, it's fear of getting in debt or being observed as receiver.

This is why in certain "poor" societies, even if not instructed and knowing limits of others, "Zuvorkommenheit" solves a lot of issues while in certain "rich" societies, although limits are known stinginess overwhelms any kind of "Zuvorkommenheit" and rather then releasing each other pulling each other more and more down to the point of breaking apart.

There is normally nevertheless no change to protect a person of no integrity from faults, as the wish to deny obligation, goodness and debt, domains. Related to this issue is there a short story about the matter of Giving, taking and the "new" world .
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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2019, 07:20:04 PM »
Next to "Zuvorkommenheit" it's good to do not banter by letting things simply lie around, having an owner. Another might be habitual not care whether something has an owner or not it easy to take on. If deposing open to take it's good to declare it as well.

Especially this days people at large do not dare much if taking is possible especially in the internet-realm which is somehow considered similar like wild forest.

Not that others could in this way increase their debt (it could be that they are not wishing to have toward even good and liberation), they could also easy be motivated to don't care about doubt.

Doing such not is actually the modern way of getting people caught, whether they know it or not. There will be (actually are) a lot of slaves with heavy debts toward "free giver". Such situations, as people are not aware, yet nevertheless bond and depended, can cause very harmful actions to try to abound debts later in wrong ways.

So it's not such as an easy way to try to gain debtors with "free suggestions" because once "ones own" one is required to feed them on of which would not end when people firm bond in the world.

That is why monks, if not after catching and do favors, take care of things and place them best possible or mark things. Not because of stingy but simply that others would not fall in even bad situations, what at least also endangers themselves toward strange things.
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Re: Stealing and taking what is not given
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 06:07:19 AM »
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