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Talkbox

2019 Nov 12 08:01:41
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 12 05:35:02
Khemakumara:  Sīlena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding. May it be a fruit-and pathful Uposatha day.

2019 Nov 11 16:41:52
Varado: Happily indeed we live, we, for whom there is [nowhere] anything at all. We will feed on rapture like the Ābhassarā devas. Dh.v.200.

2019 Nov 11 11:40:45
Johann: Ven. Sirs  _/\_ (Kana trust that leave for some rest will not reduce Bhantes releasing joy here)

2019 Nov 11 11:13:48
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 11 11:06:19
Johann: May it be an auspicious end of the Vassa of the Noble ones, a deep Anapanasati day today, for all conducting the full moon uposatha today.

2019 Nov 11 06:00:43
Johann: " Happy/peaceful the area/custom of the Arahats, craving and wandering on having layed aside"?

2019 Nov 11 03:22:11
Johann: Of which would mean what, Lok Ta, if not wishing to use google or not given means?

2019 Nov 10 23:54:03
Varado: Sukhino vata arahanto taṇhā tesaṃ na vijjati _/\_

2019 Nov 10 19:51:07
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 10 17:54:44
Johann: ភនតេ វ៉ាលិ

2019 Nov 10 14:42:47
Johann: Lok Ta  _/\_

2019 Nov 09 16:31:12
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 16:25:14
Johann: May Nyom and all have a safe travel

2019 Nov 09 16:03:41
Cheav Villa: Kana and kids Plan to go to Aural tomorrow, will leave Phnom Penh at 5am  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 15:41:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 15:37:40
Johann: Bhante Ariyadhammica, Nyom Villa

2019 Nov 09 15:35:16
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Nov 09 14:56:15
Varado: Homage to the Noble Sangha _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 14:55:15
Varado: Blessed is the arising of Buddhas. Blessed is the explaining of the true teaching. Blessed is concord in the community of bhikkhus. Of those in concord, blessed is their practice of austerity.

2019 Nov 09 14:53:06
Johann: Ven Grandfather, Nyom Annaleana,

2019 Nov 09 01:57:47
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante Varado _/\_

2019 Nov 09 01:43:05
Varado: Pūjā ca pūjanīyānaṃ

2019 Nov 09 00:44:14
Johann: Worthy those on path or reached the aim

2019 Nov 08 22:36:29
Varado: Homage to those elder bhikkhus of long-standing who have long gone forth, the fathers and leaders of the Sangha. _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:16:23
Johann: May the Venerables allow my persons leave, running out of battery.  _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:09:51
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu!

2019 Nov 08 20:09:14
Varado: Homage to Good Friends. For this is the entire holy life. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:07:04
Varado: Homage to the Good Friends. For this is the entire holy life. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 19:29:09
Varado: Thanks for summary. I send article on milk. Anything else?

2019 Nov 08 18:53:24
Varado: Also greed, hatred, and delusion. Tīni akusalamūlāni: lobho akusalamūlaṃ doso akusalamūlaṃ moho akusalamūlaṃ (D.3.214).

2019 Nov 08 18:36:34
Johann: So does it, so does it, for Bhikkhus, layman, laywoman as well. And what is the root of stinginess? Ingratitude (wrong view).

2019 Nov 08 18:30:56
Varado: Possessing five qualities, a bhikkhuni is deposited in hell as if brought there. What five? She is miserly with dwellings, families, gains, praise, and the Dhamma (A.3.139). Pañcahi bhikkhave dhammehi samannāgatā bhikkhunī yathābhataṃ nikkhittā evaṃ niraye: katamehi pañcahi: Āvāsamaccha

2019 Nov 08 18:23:39
Varado: Macchariya for lodgings, maybe?

2019 Nov 08 18:01:17
Johann: Kana saw that Bhikkhunis has even a rule in regard of macchariya, for Vineyya in their Vinaya.

2019 Nov 08 17:58:14
Johann: So does it dear Ven. Grandfather, so does it. Amacchariya is the domain of the Noble Ones, beginning by the stream to the complete of stinginess's root.

2019 Nov 08 17:51:33
Varado: Having eliminated the stain of stinginess together with its origin, they are beyond criticism.

2019 Nov 08 17:35:15
Johann: ...and "Vineyya maccheramalaṁ samūlaṁ aninditā"

2019 Nov 08 17:29:21
Johann: These Devas and Brahmas...  :) mudita

2019 Nov 08 16:53:41
Varado: May the Buddha bless you. May the Dhamma shine on you. May Wat Ayum be a refuge to many. For any possible help with questions, please email. My pleasure.

2019 Nov 08 13:55:57
Johann: ..."This shows that the Buddha would not be troubled by those who become angry and resentful, but by those who are strongly opinionated and who relinquish their views reluctantly...."

2019 Nov 08 09:27:01
Johann: Ven. Bhantes

2019 Nov 08 09:23:11
Khemakumara:   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 08 06:26:12
Johann: It was four days after closing that decreased in last instance

2019 Nov 08 06:15:13
Moritz: The bot traffic is not decreasing.

2019 Nov 08 06:15:10
Johann: Ayasma Moritz

2019 Nov 08 06:14:53
Moritz: (was logged in long time before, but not at PC)

2019 Nov 08 06:14:52
Johann: Ayasama Moritz

2019 Nov 08 06:14:06
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 02:08:55
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_ May Bhante bear and overcome all sickness well _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 02:05:42
Khemakumara: Khantı paramaṁ tapo tītikkhā. Patient forbearance is the highest austerity

2019 Nov 08 02:01:46
Khemakumara: lack of energy because of sickness of the body (boils) Nyom Moritz

2019 Nov 08 01:53:48
Khemakumara: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 08 01:52:12
Moritz: Hoping Bhante is well _/\_

2019 Nov 08 01:51:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 20:02:22
Johann: enery, battery saysfinish for now... may there be food for liberation be found and got touched by many independently.

2019 Nov 07 20:00:16
Johann: Every being, even without capacity to gain higher, is worthy of metta, worthy to be not harmed in existance, worthy to help in times of needing the four paccayas, Ven. Grandfather.

2019 Nov 07 19:37:39
Visitor: Let us treat those with Buddhanature with the respect appropriate to future Buddhas.

2019 Nov 07 19:01:03
Johann: Maybe an inspirig topic on the matter How should I express Mudita or Joy for all beings? for all having access (upanissaya).

2019 Nov 07 18:56:59
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu. That's how mudita is good understood in relation with "Buddhanature"

2019 Nov 07 18:54:52
Visitor: Homage to all those with Buddhanature. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 18:53:59
Visitor:  Homage to all the Buddhas.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 18:28:47
Johann: Dear lok ta Visitor

2019 Nov 07 17:29:02
Cheav Villa:  _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 17:24:12
Johann: Don't worry either, yet perfect if visiting the Nuns. Mudita

2019 Nov 07 17:21:15
Cheav Villa: About the medicin called loṇasociraka, Kana will take time to go to Visit Wat Panha to ask her for detail  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 17:21:05
Johann: Cetana counts, the own one, Nyom.

2019 Nov 07 17:18:42
Johann: May Nyom not worry to much about it. My person guesses Nyom Chanroth might have lot of joy in the idea of planting. While Cacaco is fine, yet not a need or request, it's something that can be gained in shops.

2019 Nov 07 17:09:57
Cheav Villa: Kana now seen without Sila… someone could not tell the truth 

2019 Nov 07 17:01:13
Cheav Villa: Kana ordered 5kg via web, phoned them 2days ago but still no delivery cause of no confirmation since he still abroad now

2019 Nov 07 16:49:17
Cheav Villa: But the Cacao company in Mondolkiri doesnt allowed, they sale Cacao beans.

2019 Nov 07 16:47:38
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ as he informed to bring only Cacao fruits for Bhante could make and use of medecine againts Malaria

2019 Nov 07 16:20:48
Johann: Indeed releasing investigation cause hunger and no food can be expected at the end as well.

2019 Nov 07 16:18:35
Johann: When homeless effort is requested, no joy in sacrificing into it. Oh this monks... of modern world.  :)

2019 Nov 07 16:16:59
Johann: Oh this monks  :) When household effort can be made for favor and house, all engaged...

2019 Nov 07 14:17:18
Johann: Āyasmā Moritz (Master, a usual address for skilled lay people in the Tipitaka)

2019 Nov 06 17:27:06
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Nov 06 17:23:52
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Nov 06 17:23:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 06 00:13:12
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Nov 05 22:47:19
Moritz: Hello Visitor! _/\_

2019 Nov 05 16:44:34
Johann: ...and that is good! Cacao

2019 Nov 05 16:31:04
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

2019 Nov 05 16:28:43
Johann: no secrets...

2019 Nov 05 16:04:15
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 05 16:03:13
Cheav Villa: I Kana got an inform from Pou Chanroth told about CaCoa seeds e

2019 Nov 05 15:49:59
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 05 10:01:43
Danilo: Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 05 10:00:01
Johann: Nyom Danilo

2019 Nov 05 07:00:40
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 05 06:14:16
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Nov 05 06:10:03
Khemakumara: Sīlena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding. May it be a fruit-and pathful Uposatha day.

2019 Nov 04 18:27:13
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 04 18:13:29
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 04 16:54:28
Johann: His encouragements, Anumodana, Sadhu

2019 Nov 04 16:51:26
Visitor: ... receive the Buddha's blesssings.

2019 Nov 04 16:50:03
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Nov 04 16:48:10
Visitor: May all visitors to this site receive the Buddha'

2019 Nov 04 15:23:02
Johann: Sadhu! May Visitor feel always welcome and given to take also own account and good birth in this realm. If needing something, just let it be known.

2019 Nov 04 15:08:20
Visitor: May all beings be well. Thank you for this site

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Author Topic: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!  (Read 327 times)

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Online Johann

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'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« on: October 23, 2019, 12:01:20 PM »
Bhante Ariyadhammika ,

my person known that there might touch much currently but all of that is not thought to touch or entertain avija but possible destruct it if there is potential for such. May Bhante use it as further possibility to bend things right.

Having just come across this work "The Kamma of Arahants and seeming to be strongly related to grave wrong views here, may person likes hope that this work is merely meant as philosophical entertainments and giving favors to those clinging on certain views of equality. Did Bhante seriously ever read what he wrote?

I would therefore suggest that the actions of Arahants can be called ”kamma” or “kiriya” (which are synonyms), without implying that Arahants accumulate kammic potential that leads to kammic results (kammavipāka) in the future. All six roots (mūla) are gone, yet their actions (kamma/kiriya) are free from greed (lobha), hatred (dosa) and delusion (moha) and therefore non-greedy (alobha), non-hating (adosa) and undeluded (amoha).

Their actions certainly have effects on themselves and others, but these effects are not governed by the law of kammavipāka and its three (?? 2 or repeating for long- if wishing so) times of ripening (during present, next or a future life).

Their actions (kamma/kiriya) are performed through body, speech or mind, yet they don ́t accumulate
kamma that can produce results (vipāka) in the future.

Did Bhante ever investigate the matter of touch in relation of kamma?

Neither do actions of Arahats effect themselves nor others (no more kamma, actions upon world, personal) and all of their remaining by body, speech and mind are left behind, run out, as the unexcelled field of merits, for kamma to go beyond. Even this field of merits can only be touched by those still working on field, can not be changed, is not altered by Arahats. Certain, those touched by Arahats, by means of their choices have good chances to become another untouchable, one who does not touch anybody or anything, incapable for performing any harmful, either good or bad.

Bhante would do good if he follows more the help of the elders he had been given, that there is no danger to fall off, no danger to harm many.

It's not wise to think it is of support to give release in regard of perception toward those still strongly clinging to form, possible by oneself still maintaining an household and a kitchen. It's not possible to understand the reach of an Arahat and simply leads to stupidy for those pounder to much on it.

Once a person has actually reached the path, and only then one can progress to give release of lasting perceptions. Such person can use and understand any word in meaning of the right Dhamma. A common person can not and trades with favors. So till then, and when spoken broadly, may Bhante follow the parents and elders of his tradition.

While kamma is used to denote perceived actions of living beings, kiriya is often used for from outward perceived actions of Arahats. There is no word, since people lack of a proper perception, which could denote the outrunning fuel of Arahats. It's therefor better to let rest such cases, cite the texts and don't try to be smarter then the Buddha. If there would be a way to use words to describe things beyond world without simply speaking in similes, the Buddha would already have done so and the Tipitaka would not need to count 100 books + repeating the same again and again with other words, but simply a sentence: as here "what ever comes into existence is subject to decay"

Did Bhante got it? if so.... yet "we" do not harm or promote decay either, not to speak for the bellies sake, sake of gain, followers, reputation... such wouldn't make sense and the Dhamma pointless if seen in actions, brought into homes from luxury "Forest-resorts" with monks not fearing to steal what ever to maintain their entertaining shows to maintain their houses, stand, homes... "we are smarter then the Jewels and their ancestors", vote for us and you can steal what ever you like or modify it for your desires, needs and objectives in the world.

This world has enough on others pain riding on luxury enjoying homie-scholars but strongly lacks of Arahats, lacks of those having left world and societies behind.

May Bhante not become another of the first sort but a field of merits quick, after having actually left home and citizenship, refuges in the world.

kiriya is well expalined by late Nyanalokita Thera, in that far to point on neutral (yet again using kamma...), who followed the elders and it is good to explain the different between a total fool (one who has not penetrated form, home, stand) and an Arahat. To easy does the fool not see the dangers in his householder-equanimity, does not see the kammic effects (something wrong in the commentaries: to say being not aware is not kamma. And inaction also has it's effects since merits are nothing lasting. If Bhante wished to point out this, then Sadhu, Sadhu! and please follow it by actions)

12. Ignoring the truth



Klicken Sie hier um das Bild großer zu sehen Here, the boy facing the lion does not fear it because he is not aware of the real danger. The lion represents the defilements of greed, anger, ignorance and lust as well as birth, old age, sickness and death. The young man is incapable of appreciating the danger confronting him because in his ignorance he still clings to the overt sensory perceptions of form, sound, taste, smell, and touch which are the bases for unsatisfactory experience. In contact to this state of ignorance, the figure above does realize life’s perils. Having comprehended these elementary causes, he points them out to the young man who still persists in ignoring the truth.

18. Wrong practice of buddha-dhamma



The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordained in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbāna.

(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)

30. Bhayañāņa



This picture also illustrates the theme of the knowledge of fearfulness but is by a different artist. Here the boy (or the immature person) is frightened by the lion while above the aspiring monk, (who stands for the mature person able to face unwelcome but true facts) realizes the fearsomeness of all compounded things.

39. Gotrabhūñāṇa

After attaining maturity of knowledge, one arrives at magga-ñāṇa or knowledge of the path leading to Nibbāna, following upon which one attains phala-ñāṇa (Fruition-knowledge), which is recognition of the Path.



This picture illustrates maturity of knowledge (gotrabhū-ñāṇa). Here the aspirant points to the Three Gems upon the ornate throne and signifies that he has finally taken Nibbāna as the object of his meditation. At this stage, he is prepared to transcend the “family” (gotra) of ordinary mortals and progress into the realm of the Noble Ones (ariya), which term also means those who have developed.*

Magga-ñāṇa and phala-ñāṇa are obtained through the process of:

    1. stream-entering (sotāpaññā)
    2. once-returning (sakadāgāmī)
    3. never-returning (anāgamī)
    4. Arahantship (arahatta)

The four stages of this development* are represented by the four levels of lotuses in the picture and by the seated monks. The fully opened and blooming lotus stands for the Arahant or completely Enlightened One.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 02:07:51 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2019, 01:02:45 PM »
There is the case where someone saying being an Arahat or speaking "I tell you the view and kind of Arahats, how things should be understood actually!". Now this person declares: "There is nothing taken by stealing things, no lose for anybody as there was no scarifies, no mother, no father, ... Monks, follower of the Arahats, don't fear to take and steal what is not given as long as you can argue that there has nothing been moved. Don't let your freedom in taking, your desires, be limited by such low Dhamma!"

What does Bhante think: Would such have great kammical effects for this "Arahat" or representing the Arahats and those bound to them, following his advices?

Would he speak in such case of "kamma" or "kiriya", of the ways of Arahats or the ways of total unaware fools seeking after the eigth Dhammas in the world, live for the world, bound to world and nurish on lose of others?

Would "this is most evil kamma, based on hell leading kiriya" be a good denotation for such an "Arahat"?


My person has seen broad honored monks declaring: "If such as no freedom in taking what is not given is actually the case, I would not have gone for refuge". Public, upvoted, highly applauded by fools. What does Bhante think about that case of renewing "collective" hell leading kamma if tracing such?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Online Johann

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2019, 01:53:29 PM »
To leave it not to confusing behind for those who still hold on "Kaiser, and Kaisers Bart", Bhante Ariyadhammika . Can "we", if such a we-perception is desired and conductive for many, approve that the Buddha never declared "neutral kamma" but just two kinds, kusala and akusala, described in four ways, heading four different path in the world?

And what are the two kinds of kamma not beyond kamma yet, which are of four kinds declared, to point out their different effects, directions?

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a non-injurious bodily fabrication ... a non-injurious verbal fabrication ... a non-injurious mental fabrication ... He rearises in a non-injurious world ... There he is touched by non-injurious contacts ... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Beautiful Black Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me."

In that sense, in this way, it's total improper to use "kamma" in relation with an Arahat, and all the more understandable why kiriya is well used as "replacement". Yet, to describe kiriya by means of kamma, again, sends one on loops or down-wardly.

May all of you always find ways, be/do touched in ways, which are next or within puññakiriyavatthu and may Bhante pardon if my person could not lead to rest, or leave rest, in Noble Domain with his "sharp" words. (Ku-sala ku=bad sala=cutting of/away.)

On this case, nidana, good to cite the Nidana Sutta:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

"Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Any action performed with aversion — born of aversion, caused by aversion, originating from aversion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Any action performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain. Those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance. In the same way, any action performed with greed... performed with aversion... performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

"These are three causes for the origination of actions.

"Now, these three are [further] causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Non-delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

"Any action performed with non-greed — born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originating from non-greed: When greed is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Any action performed with non-aversion — born of non-aversion, caused by non-aversion, originating from non-aversion: When aversion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Any action performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and a man would burn them with fire and, burning them with fire, would make them into fine ashes. Having made them into fine ashes, he would winnow them before a high wind or wash them away in a swift-flowing stream. Those seeds would thus be destroyed at the root, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"In the same way, any action performed with non-greed... performed with non-aversion... performed with non-delusion — born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originating from non-delusion: When delusion is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"These, monks, are three causes for the origination of action."

A person unknowing:
the actions performed by him,
born of greed, born of aversion,
& born of delusion,
whether many or few,
are experienced right here:
   no other ground is found.[1]

So a monk, knowing,
   sheds
greed, aversion, & delusion;
giving rise to clear knowledge, he
   sheds
all bad destinations.[2]
 1. According to the Commentary, "right here" means within the stream of one's own "selfhood" (attabhava), i.e., one's own chain of rebirth. "No other ground is found" means that the fruit of the action is not experienced by any other person's chain of rebirth.
 2. The Commentary notes that this verse refers to the attainment of arahantship, and that an arahant — in reaching nibbana — sheds not only bad destinations, but also good ones.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 02:15:06 PM by Johann »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2019, 03:03:27 PM »
Bhante Ariyadhammika , the fundamental possible missunderstanding, as Bhante pointed out at the beginning of his essay, is to assume that the Buddhas speaks of Arahats in both of the mentioned Suttas, when pointing out "path-kamma", but: no. This is, the good form, still the area of the Sekha.

So as Bhante introduced proper in his essay (here "strangely" taking the commentary as foundation for argument, to refuse the tradition!?):

The Commentary (to AN 3.33) notes that this verse refers to the attainment of arahantship, and that an arahant — in reaching nibbana — sheds not only bad destinations, but also good ones.


and refers to the "path-kamma" (only the verse end denotes the arahat in its last sentence in ways of telling about the result of the three other kinds of kamma):

„There are three (further) causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma. (1) “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. (The same is then repeated for non-hatred and non-delusion.)” (AN 3.34)


It's obvious clear for Bhante that the Arahat neither doesn't (better appear to) act bright, nor dark, nor mixed, nor path-full, as his deeds, duties are done.

In both suttas, the last and promoted kamma is still kamma, kamma on the path, not the sphere of an Asekha yet.

So again, it's total improper to use the word kamma in relation with an Arahat, yet it is known that western language lacks of a special word for "actions of Arahats", of what is perceived by others.

And as it appeared by speaking on buying meat, Bhante: approve of killing, which can be, and is often present by one buying meat, is also akusala kamma of killing. It's not right to make favors in saying categorical "buying meat is no bad action", or to hold the view that verbal and bodily actions have impact while mental not or lesser.

Wouldn't it - out of lack for a proper word and to replace action, deed... western words, causing possible confusion - not actually the best to adopt very active the use of kiriya for outrunning moves of Arahats instead of trying to nourish on popular pseudo-liberalism? Could Bhante be that cool and free to use only kiriya when speaking with modern people? Does he has the freedom to such kiriya or leading to it?

Mudita and much approve toward having now found a proper word for "actions" of an Arahat by the help and means given by Bhante Ariyadhammika: kiriya, not to be mistaken with atthi -kiriya.

Susukhumanipuṇatthadassinā… nibbānaṁ na hi tena dullabhanti.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 03:23:34 PM by Johann »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2019, 03:37:07 PM »
May my person ask Bhante Ariyadhammika to dedicate his essay or a copy of it, for the Sangha of the eight directions, as it delivers good (aside of small better adopted usual) the Dhamma of the Buddha?

May my person make use of Bhantes Essay of "kamma" of an Arahat, on pointing out the possibility to use kiriya for distinction, to dedicate it toward the Sublime Sangha represented by the Sangha of the eight directions?

May person would still suggest to stick with the tradition and make use of a "new" possibility if the case is proper, use the usual logo for a assembly's need, case by case, and the modern world needs to get more familar with it's parents and ancestors rather then to give food to reject the parents tradition.

Again and a third: May my person ask Bhante Ariyadhammika to dedicate his essay or a copy of it, for the Sangha of the eight directions, as it delivers good (aside of small better adopted usual) the Dhamma of the Buddha? Not for the world but for gain of Unbound, not for social work and not for making favors.
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2019, 12:59:52 PM »
Having had the impression this morning, that dear Bhante Ariyadhammika might not have seen the point of issue yet, my person likes to give a sample on the danger of pseudo liberal approaches which are mostly caused by wishing to give favor and nourish pride of householder-equanimity for gains:

As born in Austria Bhante might have gained some knowledge in regard of respect and use of words. Lets take the deed of eating. The lowest kind "fressen", feed, is used for deed of eating of animals, here also for children and uneducated people. It's eating with sound, make a mess, unrestrained. A higher kind would be eating, dine... english does not use much differences any more.

In traditional countries, because ideals and kinds are different, and a use of distinction and force to strive for higher, there are many levels of eating, unrestrained, common good people,  that of people with sila, the eating of royals, that of monks. Each has it's word.

While not educated people, or "communists, would use feed everywhere, good families would train their children in use of word, deed and to understand the distinction. That is the reason not only for needed hierarchies but also for peace and certain force or wish to gain higher levels.

Now today it's popular to win favors by telling children that people with Sila, King, Monks, also just feed. That cuts their possible anchors down to where they are.

So it should be understood that ever upright person would blame a "teacher" who tells their children, for his bellies sake, honor, gain, thats o.k. when they say "The King is feeding. The Monk is feeding. Mother feeds, Buddha feeds".

He is known as either uninstructed, a fool, or a favor maker under good people. And his followers are sure to ever stuck in this hole having made a virtue out of incapacity.

The same is with Bhantes approach. Reader to turn to conservative ways, the way of the elders, to do first things firstand tell people the different and encourage to use distinctions that not informed start to train by body and speech, he cut good down to low, saying it's ok to say "the Buddha feeds, gorges", yet at the same time no evidence that Elders ever used to say such at the same time.

Does Bhante understand the basic but dangerous error?

It's much morean compassionate act if teaching (if even having learned by oneself) the child right ways and respectful speech step by step "when you speech of eating of an elder, use..., monk use..." than to give low food for low release in the middle of dirt that does not even shines in spheres of the world.

It's certain not easy to gain basic right views having grown up, associating, in post modern environments, there where householder-equanimity is mistaken with the path which starts with Sila and even gained renounciation equanimity does not abound where it came from.

My person hopes that Bhante can be another seldom person who gets the point and turns to acceptance and the truth of:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the seventh.

78. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the eighth.

79. "Bhikkhus, the increase of wealth is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the ninth.

80. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the tenth."

For the fool pseudo-liberalism shines like gold and certain "small-minded" seeming approaches are not traced as having a need till mind level in ones proper distinction is reached. Higher Silas would always cover "low" an the proverb "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" is good to always remind.

May it be a visible trace of an escape from a prision one might not easy recognize ever spent in the palace for Bhante. The life outside, reallity of Samsara is different and the way out is not gained by trying to give farmers a feeling as if being kings.

It's possible to make a very usefull essay out of it, if changing basic view and re-write only some sentences which aren't pure at all if investigating honest. May Bhante do not fear lose of low and not be shy to gain the praise of the wise.

With this essay as it is, he has lost any honor even from simple but good farmers in areas where Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha is an old tradition and not just a new vehicle for marxist approaches for the mass of fools. And he does not need to fear that seeing a fault is not double approved and praised. Making mistakes the wise understands as he would not feel personal attached when a not instructed child from low family would say "feed" when he eats, yet out of compassion and for the gain ofvbetter spheres he would teach the child, starting with speech and body and later on mind stage.
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2019, 12:07:00 AM »
I don't know whether you have read the entire paper, but it seems you have overlooked the following passage, or else you may let me know why you choose to ignore it:


...The earlier quote from SN 56.11 explains that the Noble Eightfold Path has been developed by the Buddha. One of the path-factors is right action/doing (sammā kammanta), which is elsewhere defined as abstaining from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. It is to be expected that even after awakening, the living Arahant still possesses all path-factors, starting with right view, and also including right action.

This is explicitly stated in AN 10.112:
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten qualities of one beyond training. What ten? The right view of one beyond training; the right intention … the right speech … the right action … the right livelihood … the right effort … the right mindfulness … the right concentration … the right knowledge … the right liberation of one beyond training. These are the ten qualities of one beyond training.” (AN 10.112)

From this we can see that right action (sammā kammanta) applies even to the actions of Arahants (one beyond training).


If you have an explanation for how this passage can be understood differently, please let me know.

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2019, 12:17:27 AM »
Here another quote from my paper:

Now let´s see how “kiriya” is used in the discourses:
Then the Blessed One asked him: “Tapassī, how many kinds of action does the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?”
“kati pana, tapassi, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto daṇḍāni paññapeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? (MN 56)

In the above passage ”kiriya“ is used with reference to unwholesome actions.

“Then the Nigaṇṭha Dīgha Tapassī asked the Blessed One: ‘And you, friend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?’ ‘Tapassī, the Tathāgata is not accustomed to use the description ‘rod, rod’; the Tathāgata is accustomed to use the description ‘action, action.’ ’ ‘But, friend Gotama, how many kinds of action do you describe for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action?’ ‘Tapassī, I describe three kinds of action for the performance of evil action, for the perpetration of evil action: that is, bodily action, verbal action, and mental action.’
evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca — “tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati daṇḍāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? “na kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa ‘daṇḍaṁ, daṇḍan’ti paññapetuṁ; ‘kammaṁ, kamman’ti kho, tapassi, āciṇṇaṁ tathāgatassa paññapetun”ti? “tvaṁ panāvuso gotama, kati kammāni paññapesi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā”ti? “tīṇi kho ahaṁ, tapassi, kammāni paññapemi pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, seyyathidaṁ — kāyakammaṁ, vacīkammaṁ, manokamman”ti. (MN 56)

While it was initially Nigaṇṭha Dīgha Tapassī who used “kiriya” with reference to unwholesome actions, here the Buddha uses it in exactly the same way. This shows that “kiriya” is used in reference to kammically effective actions. The above example refers specifically to actions of non-arahants, since Arahants are not able to perform “evil (pāpa) actions”. This is contrary to the common usage of the term “kiriya” these days.

In case you have a reading of above passages that allows for a different interpretation, please let me know. Until then, I regard your various statements in this thread as your personal opinions, which contradict the passages under discussion.

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2019, 06:24:45 AM »
Bhante Ariyadhammika , again, the "failure" and "violation" does not come from the word in and of itself, but is always a matter of either right view and right intention or rebellion and ingratitude.

If Bhante would know my persons way a little, he would know that he is the last who makes saññas an object of a matter if the meaning is grasped but at the same time the largest if the meaning (for path) is not grasped.

What's, again, the purpose of the essay? To tell a whole tradition that they are small-minded fools? What counts, taken the advices, as own opinion? As Bhante surely knows, the Vinaya tells the own opinion to be the lowest refuge. Now, 2600 years after, comming up with "it's ok to say kamma of the Buddha", what is it? That what the Buddha, texts, tradition... tells or Bhantes result of investigation based on invalid logic at the same time?

The logic used here by him is like the logic western have in regard of greed. Because greed is akusala greed isn't a factor of the path. That's complet misunderstanding the point. Yet lobha isn't used to denote the path requirement. Chanda is also used in bad context. Understand the error?

While fressen, essen, speisen, dinnieren, einnehmen, zehren... can be used in many context, good or bad, fressen would nevertheless be used for a King, God or anything Sublime, not to speak if one does no more nurish.

A child, not better knowing, saying "Buddha frißt", a compassionate person would train to use better word so that at least not endangered by kamma in words and deeds. Sure minds kamma is still another matter, a child would not have really touched very akusala.

Again, there is no evidence that kamma is used for conducting by the Buddha, so what can be called an opinion here? And as one who has studied the Dhamma: Bhante should know well that a logic that works in the way Bhante uses here, does in many cases not work but fails.

Because einnehmen is found to be used in negative sense, it's ok to use fressen for Sublime.

Again, what's the intention, the purpose of the Essay. May Bhante tell my person that it is a pure one. As a meditator he may be able to investigate truthfully.

If Bhante would be someone not instructed, not seemingly in relation to the tradition, it could be seen as simply playing around, but he takes a stand in a leading possition with more responsibility then for opinion-battles for his favored targets.

Again, the matterial is wonderful if simply having the intent to show the Sublimity of the Buddha and really not good kamma if using it to pull the Sublime Buddha down as food for trade in the world, on the useless level of pseudo-liberality to make ones customers a favor.

If Bhantes intention of the essay and approach is actually really pure has a deeper, for the path even usefull purpose, may Bhante let it be known so that my person could regard the matter as simply "verfahrene unnütze Sache, wert zur Seite zu legen, zuzudecken".

May Bhante also keep in mind of not only puggala-kamma he conducts but also Sangha-kamma as being part of it and if remember his taks on the four factors influencing kamma to ripe, the proper estimate of the Sangha among people of right view has a huge impact for many. The Sangha becomes a not desired place to take birth if being no more praiseworthy regarded at large by wise.

Again, is the any reference that low estimated verbs are used to describe the conducting of the Buddha, did the tradition ever used the word kamma when the Buddha, an Aragat acts?

Good then to point out ways and word which can be used instead, as the tradition and devoted actually did (of which is object of wishing to destroy or pay no respect here, actually). Bhante would have the skill to pull people up rather the Tripple Gems down to them so that they feel pleased where they are.

It doesn't let Bhante shine if he walks the same low trade the many wester/modern do like children of ingratitude, to pick out the gross food to run their undertakings and trades in and for the world as another "previous wander of other sects" who could not abound basic wrong views. Ywt totally aware that such is not easy, takes time an would need much association with people of old tradition, Bhante might not have had and never really left home, the Deva-state, so many dwell. This state lets wholesome kamma easy ripe, but is a sphere difficult to understand the essence. If suffering is not well traced, if not having left palace, it's really difficult.

So may he meet the proper factors letting see both sides of kamma, the nice and the ugly.
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2019, 12:36:02 PM »
Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Many thanks to Bhante for the attempt to tackle such a difficult topic on how the arahant's action should be designated from the perspective of the discourses. From the Paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111), the term "kammanirodha" is used in reference to the results of actions based on non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. From this sutta, it is reasonable to conclude that "kammanirodha" is equivalent to "samma kammanta of one beyond training", the arahant's right action. I think designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha avoids the Abhidhamma's contradictory definition of kiriya and is consistent with the suttas. May Bhante advise on any short comings Bhante sees with designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha, out of compassion  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2019, 12:58:32 PM »
Let my person give it another try before giving up the case, Bhante Ariyadhammika .

Whether Bhante is aware or not, with his approach he touches not Dhamma at least, but Vinaya, convention. It seems to be that Vinaya is small-minded, culter isn't the path, but actually is. It sounds possible also strange when y person tells that Vinaya always takes Sakkāyadiṭṭhi into acount, even higher Sila does so, at least out of compassion of those caught within.

To invent a new convention that the use of "kamma" is valid to denote the conducting of the Buddha is an approach from a child upwardly. From outside the tradition wouldn't work and causes all but problems. Approaching the old family in such ways, small-minded as well in ways Bhante is used from his pseudoliberal cultur background cut him and his fellows off from the old tradition. Bhante should be aware where he is and where he comes from. He dwells far off the heirs, between Yupies and cultur-marxism.

Now, if two conventions met each other, which one has priority? The new-comers or that of the parents?

Western and modern arrogance is huge and they will not easy get aware of the damage they do everywhere in the world having simply to much merits but lack on fundamental wisdom.

Maybe Bhante is a little released when get informed that even the use of kiriya isn't really custom. That was why my person showed off some joy that there could be a special word.

When ever people speak of deeds of the Buddha, Arahats, Bhikkus, the Buddhaparisada is used to use the most sublime kind of words avaliable in their language. Traditional it is the reason why there is a seperat vocabular for many things speaking of the Buddha and the Sangha. It's right speech combined with the training of veneration.

It's total not an act of compassion to cut Sublime down to feed one kind and to trade with the destructive conceit of equality.

Another short story to explain the matter:

That Upasaka Chanroth could quicky understand the issue here my person spoke about a t-shirt he wears which actually promotes Marijuana. People here and he aren't aware of the saññas used on clothes, so within there sphere it's just nice color. Then I tild him that if a western Buddhist would see a buddist priest wearing marijuana promoting clothes he is quickly suspected of wrong conducts althought he might not even know. In this way he quickly understood the matter.

The same ay is here: althought it might be "cool" to wear the word "kamma" for the Buddha (yet in this case even informed but wishing to rebel and make a earning with it), as soon as old family would met one doing so, he will be regarded as outsider.

Now, it might be no problem for Bhante to be regarded as outsider as he might have a huge pocket of merits anyway, but it's totally not sure whether those bound to him can bear it likewise or are simply cut off with such ignorance toward the heirs, elders and tradition of which is not rootes in marxist movements.

It should be not seen as demand or even that my person would be a formal, conventional authority, but simply as a burdensome act of compassion to try to get Bhante back down on earth and earth lies not in the sphere of resorts and palaces.

So may Bhante think about his responsibility serious and decide wisely who is really worthy to serve, trade-sake in the world or going and encouraging other toward sublime and vossagga.

There are enough useless Sujatos, Brahmas, Scholars... around and when he thinks that it is worthy to sacrifices elders and parents for the gain of the trades cake, nobody can hinder him.

Maybe he likes to play his way of logic again with the pali words lobha (instead of kamma) and chanda (instead of the use of special verbs for the Sublime) to be able to trace the fault in his approach not only on the kammic level but also as invalid in regard of Sila/Vinaya.

May Bhante take care not to become another biggest thieve in the world, something fast happens like rich people and Kings are easy victims of their huge amount of merits.

Bhante needs to leave his former spheres of hardcore business, management and trade otherwise 1000 vassas wouldn't open him the path and real domain. It all starts with leaving home and not having taken another in a monastery or outwardly tradition.

My person thinks that it possible will take many years till Bhante gets the point here and he should not think that he isn't welcome anyway.

With respect toward Bhantes good deeds of past, future and possible even present.  _/\_
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Offline Ariyadhammika

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 11:03:43 PM »
Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Many thanks to Bhante for the attempt to tackle such a difficult topic on how the arahant's action should be designated from the perspective of the discourses. From the Paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111), the term "kammanirodha" is used in reference to the results of actions based on non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. From this sutta, it is reasonable to conclude that "kammanirodha" is equivalent to "samma kammanta of one beyond training", the arahant's right action. I think designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha avoids the Abhidhamma's contradictory definition of kiriya and is consistent with the suttas. May Bhante advise on any short comings Bhante sees with designating the arahant's action as kammanirodha, out of compassion  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Dear Saddhamma,
Thanks for bringing AN 3.111 to our attention. The entire quote in which the term kammanirodha occurs is this: "That kamma leads to the cessation of kamma (taṁ kammaṁ kammanirodhāya saṁvattati)".
Even here the term kamma is used, when it says "That kamma...".

The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.


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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2019, 11:40:54 PM »
A. Johann,
To spare yourself the time and kamma of further speculation, let me offer some observations and clarifications about my intentions for writing this paper.
 
Now, I noticed that many of your defamatory posts in this thread seem to be based on the assumption that I may have an agenda of egalitarianism - trying to water down the differences between a Buddha, an Arahant and puthujjanas, which is indeed not uncommon among Western Buddhists. However, you are beating at the wrong bush. I don't care about Western ideas of egalitarianism, nor do I care about creating new words for the Buddha just to make him appear especially great. What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof. Comparative study of Early Buddhist texts by putting side-by-side the Pali, Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan versions of a text, too is a helpful tool in this regard. It is your perfect right, to place your faith in later generations of commentators, sub-commentators, Ajahn this, Sayadaw that, Svaminvahanse so-and-so. However, to me the Mahāpadesasutta offers a perfectly useful guideline how to deal with teachings that are in contradiction with the Dhamma and Vinaya as explained by the Buddha himself. When you urge others not to dismiss tradition, it seems you emphasize more on the LATER tradition, rather than the EARLIER tradition of the Buddha himself.

I think my paper has shown very clearly that in the discourses the word kiriya is not limited to Arahants, but is being used for puthujjanas; ironically, not a single discourse could be found where the term kiriya is used for the Buddha or Arahants. Thus, your assertion that a special word needs to be used for the Buddha as a sign of respect, is not in line with the usage within the discourses and Early Buddhist tradition. Surely, there are instances where honorific terms are being used e.g. Bhagavā; however, when it comes to the conventional way of speaking about actions, no special word has been used with regards the Buddha and Arahants. Even the word kiriya is not taken as a honorific term by the Abhidhammikas, but as a term that is meant to indicate the the Buddha's actions (kamma) lack kammic potency - they can't produce vipāka and are simply functional. 

My pointing out that the in the suttas the term kiriya was never used in reference to the Arahants, is a factual statement. Your apparent discomfort with this truth makes no difference.

However, my intention for pointing out that the suttas use the word kiriya in regard to puthujjanas, and the term kamma can be used even for Arahants, has nothing to do with trying to make Arahants equal to puthujjanas, or about being disrespectful. The opposite is the case. It is out of respect for the Buddha himself, and an interest in finding out how HE used important doctrinal terms, that I find it worthwhile pointing out that the suttas use these terms differently from the Commentarial and Abhidhammic traditions.

Long story short: If you feel at home with the later "tradition", so be it. I have no objections. But I do object to your speculation of the underlying motives behind my paper. This is all have to say on this matter.

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 12:31:33 AM »
The words KAMMAKIRIYA make best sense when used together i.e. 'doing an action.' To say that kiriya is for one type of person, and kamma is for another is to ignore this basic grammar.

In the suttas, where kiriya is used alone, it can be regarded as an abbreviation for kammakiriya. See examples below. But in Abhidhamma, kiriya clearly does not mean kammakiriya. Therefore Abhidhamma useage cannot be part of the discussion.

Bhante's examples where kiriya means [kamma]kiriya, are as follows:

1) If there is an undertaking of kamma (atthi [kamma] kiriyā) , then on the dissolution of the body this good person will reappear in a happy destination.

2) Bhikkhus,  the  Blessed  Ones of  the  past  taught  a doctrine of kamma, a doctrine of undertaking of kamma ([kamma] kiriya), a doctrine of energy. (AN 3.138)

But bhante's quote from the Abhidhamma says “The fourth type of consciousness is called kiriya which, for want of a better term, is rendered by ‘karmically ineffective’, ‘inoperative’ or ‘functional’. …

Here kiriya cannot be parenthesised as kammakiriya. Therefore Abhidhamma cannot be used to explain the suttas.

The karmic division between arahants and non-arahants is seen in the term saṅkhāraṃ abhisankharoti. Arahants do not saṅkhāraṃ abhisankharoti. In other words, arahants do not accumulate either merit or demerit or neutrality, which is what saṅkhāraṃ means in this context. They perform neither puññā nor apuññā nor āneñjā. Consider this quote:

1) When a bhikkhu has abandoned avijjā and aroused vijjā, he does not undertake kamma that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.
☸ Yato kho bhikkhave bhikkhuno avijjā pahīṇā hoti vijjā uppannā so avijjāvirāgā vijjūppādā neva puññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na apuññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na āneñjābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti (S.2.82).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 12:57:45 AM by Varado »

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 03:16:50 AM »
Sadhu both Venerables for, generosity and ammacchariya of many kinds, undertaking investigations and trying to do and guide each other and many either toward "doing kusala kamma" or even "just doing".

My person, again, doesn't think that there is a larger Dhammic problem here, but still thinks it's a Sila problem and yes, it's routed in traumatic misstrust of the parents, "a parents not yet on the right place, issue", something western, modern have a hard to fix, yet it's the task to be able to really enter.

Maybe the Venerables, given that Grandfather Varado pointed a little on the next aside of the "chanda, lobha" sample, wish my person thought to bring up, that the use of certain logic wouldn't apply in regard of language use in the tradition and older and traditional language, simple seeming, yet very formal (sila). The word puñña, pāpa, kusala, akusala, combined or allone.

Acting kusala (ku: bad, wrong, not useful ; sala: cutting away, clearing) as a certain craftsman, in a certain sphere, does not necessary mean to be in the area of puñña kirya vatthu. It's not pāpa (gain decreasing) in it sphere, but no puñña either.

(My person, again, also told at the beginning, is not of the opinion that there is any doing of neutral kamma defined by the Buddha, yet terms, using doing (without kamma) are used in later explainings and traditions, so as today it is common to use certain words in other languages to try to illustrate something)

My person mustard (add of two cent's) here is just add of mustard, no money, no value under measures of certain particular skills bringing gain or honor.

Hopefully the matter wouldn't get lost in a "imperators beard" issue, yet the "bread" is act-ually the (kamma doing) point.

Sometimes, on certain occation, when with people who good understand the creative use of words of Kana, my person used to use farting around, or trumping, if there are just āsavas flowing out. Yet if telling somebody "what a fart " and he is not ready for release from something, it's ver hurtful. So please pardon if it gives possible field for kamma ripping.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 04:15:57 AM by Johann »
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