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Talkbox

2019 Nov 14 22:46:22
Johann: Atma leaves the paranimmita-vasavatti deva and nimmanarati deva now to find good birth by themself, no more power left.

2019 Nov 14 22:00:48
Cheav Villa: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 14 21:39:00
Johann: Duties and Silas are words of same meaning, denoting "proper conduct and giving in ones relations where ne desires to have a good and safe stand"

2019 Nov 14 21:25:51
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 14 21:21:02
Johann: May all have good rest at the end of day, done ones duties or even a blessed done merits after that as well. My person is now off of energy and good to rest as well.

2019 Nov 14 13:43:11
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 14 10:35:51
Johann: Respecting the Devas one gains their respect and protection.

2019 Nov 14 10:34:40
Johann: Bhante. (Meawmane is a spirit from a Server in Bangkok)

2019 Nov 14 10:28:52
Khemakumara: Nyom Meawmane

2019 Nov 14 10:27:53
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Nov 13 20:44:51
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 13 20:28:20
Johann: Bhante  _/\_ Nyom, Nyom

2019 Nov 13 13:19:14
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 13 11:54:18
Johann: Mahā (written), not moha (following civil transliteration of khmer, very unuseful, better following pali transliteration) "Deluded Wisdom Monastery" could be understood while "Great Wisdom Monastery"  :)

2019 Nov 13 10:22:14
Johann: mudita

2019 Nov 13 09:56:41
Cheav Villa: Kana now at Panha Moha Viheara, waiting for  Bhikkuni

2019 Nov 13 09:47:10
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 12 08:01:41
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 12 05:35:02
Khemakumara:  Sīlena nibbutiṁ yanti. Through virtue they go to Unbinding. May it be a fruit-and pathful Uposatha day.

2019 Nov 11 16:41:52
Varado: Happily indeed we live, we, for whom there is [nowhere] anything at all. We will feed on rapture like the Ābhassarā devas. Dh.v.200.

2019 Nov 11 11:40:45
Johann: Ven. Sirs  _/\_ (Kana trust that leave for some rest will not reduce Bhantes releasing joy here)

2019 Nov 11 11:13:48
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 11 11:06:19
Johann: May it be an auspicious end of the Vassa of the Noble ones, a deep Anapanasati day today, for all conducting the full moon uposatha today.

2019 Nov 11 06:00:43
Johann: " Happy/peaceful the area/custom of the Arahats, craving and wandering on having layed aside"?

2019 Nov 11 03:22:11
Johann: Of which would mean what, Lok Ta, if not wishing to use google or not given means?

2019 Nov 10 23:54:03
Varado: Sukhino vata arahanto taṇhā tesaṃ na vijjati _/\_

2019 Nov 10 19:51:07
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 10 17:54:44
Johann: ភនតេ វ៉ាលិ

2019 Nov 10 14:42:47
Johann: Lok Ta  _/\_

2019 Nov 09 16:31:12
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 16:25:14
Johann: May Nyom and all have a safe travel

2019 Nov 09 16:03:41
Cheav Villa: Kana and kids Plan to go to Aural tomorrow, will leave Phnom Penh at 5am  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 15:41:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 15:37:40
Johann: Bhante Ariyadhammica, Nyom Villa

2019 Nov 09 15:35:16
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Nov 09 14:56:15
Varado: Homage to the Noble Sangha _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 09 14:55:15
Varado: Blessed is the arising of Buddhas. Blessed is the explaining of the true teaching. Blessed is concord in the community of bhikkhus. Of those in concord, blessed is their practice of austerity.

2019 Nov 09 14:53:06
Johann: Ven Grandfather, Nyom Annaleana,

2019 Nov 09 01:57:47
Moritz: Vandami, Bhante Varado _/\_

2019 Nov 09 01:43:05
Varado: Pūjā ca pūjanīyānaṃ

2019 Nov 09 00:44:14
Johann: Worthy those on path or reached the aim

2019 Nov 08 22:36:29
Varado: Homage to those elder bhikkhus of long-standing who have long gone forth, the fathers and leaders of the Sangha. _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:16:23
Johann: May the Venerables allow my persons leave, running out of battery.  _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:09:51
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu!

2019 Nov 08 20:09:14
Varado: Homage to Good Friends. For this is the entire holy life. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 20:07:04
Varado: Homage to the Good Friends. For this is the entire holy life. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 19:29:09
Varado: Thanks for summary. I send article on milk. Anything else?

2019 Nov 08 18:53:24
Varado: Also greed, hatred, and delusion. Tīni akusalamūlāni: lobho akusalamūlaṃ doso akusalamūlaṃ moho akusalamūlaṃ (D.3.214).

2019 Nov 08 18:36:34
Johann: So does it, so does it, for Bhikkhus, layman, laywoman as well. And what is the root of stinginess? Ingratitude (wrong view).

2019 Nov 08 18:30:56
Varado: Possessing five qualities, a bhikkhuni is deposited in hell as if brought there. What five? She is miserly with dwellings, families, gains, praise, and the Dhamma (A.3.139). Pañcahi bhikkhave dhammehi samannāgatā bhikkhunī yathābhataṃ nikkhittā evaṃ niraye: katamehi pañcahi: Āvāsamaccha

2019 Nov 08 18:23:39
Varado: Macchariya for lodgings, maybe?

2019 Nov 08 18:01:17
Johann: Kana saw that Bhikkhunis has even a rule in regard of macchariya, for Vineyya in their Vinaya.

2019 Nov 08 17:58:14
Johann: So does it dear Ven. Grandfather, so does it. Amacchariya is the domain of the Noble Ones, beginning by the stream to the complete of stinginess's root.

2019 Nov 08 17:51:33
Varado: Having eliminated the stain of stinginess together with its origin, they are beyond criticism.

2019 Nov 08 17:35:15
Johann: ...and "Vineyya maccheramalaṁ samūlaṁ aninditā"

2019 Nov 08 17:29:21
Johann: These Devas and Brahmas...  :) mudita

2019 Nov 08 16:53:41
Varado: May the Buddha bless you. May the Dhamma shine on you. May Wat Ayum be a refuge to many. For any possible help with questions, please email. My pleasure.

2019 Nov 08 13:55:57
Johann: ..."This shows that the Buddha would not be troubled by those who become angry and resentful, but by those who are strongly opinionated and who relinquish their views reluctantly...."

2019 Nov 08 09:27:01
Johann: Ven. Bhantes

2019 Nov 08 09:23:11
Khemakumara:   _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 08 06:26:12
Johann: It was four days after closing that decreased in last instance

2019 Nov 08 06:15:13
Moritz: The bot traffic is not decreasing.

2019 Nov 08 06:15:10
Johann: Ayasma Moritz

2019 Nov 08 06:14:53
Moritz: (was logged in long time before, but not at PC)

2019 Nov 08 06:14:52
Johann: Ayasama Moritz

2019 Nov 08 06:14:06
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 02:08:55
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_ May Bhante bear and overcome all sickness well _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 08 02:05:42
Khemakumara: Khantı paramaṁ tapo tītikkhā. Patient forbearance is the highest austerity

2019 Nov 08 02:01:46
Khemakumara: lack of energy because of sickness of the body (boils) Nyom Moritz

2019 Nov 08 01:53:48
Khemakumara: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 08 01:52:12
Moritz: Hoping Bhante is well _/\_

2019 Nov 08 01:51:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante (Khemakumara) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 20:02:22
Johann: enery, battery saysfinish for now... may there be food for liberation be found and got touched by many independently.

2019 Nov 07 20:00:16
Johann: Every being, even without capacity to gain higher, is worthy of metta, worthy to be not harmed in existance, worthy to help in times of needing the four paccayas, Ven. Grandfather.

2019 Nov 07 19:37:39
Visitor: Let us treat those with Buddhanature with the respect appropriate to future Buddhas.

2019 Nov 07 19:01:03
Johann: Maybe an inspirig topic on the matter How should I express Mudita or Joy for all beings? for all having access (upanissaya).

2019 Nov 07 18:56:59
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu. That's how mudita is good understood in relation with "Buddhanature"

2019 Nov 07 18:54:52
Visitor: Homage to all those with Buddhanature. _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 18:53:59
Visitor:  Homage to all the Buddhas.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 18:28:47
Johann: Dear lok ta Visitor

2019 Nov 07 17:29:02
Cheav Villa:  _/\_  _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 17:24:12
Johann: Don't worry either, yet perfect if visiting the Nuns. Mudita

2019 Nov 07 17:21:15
Cheav Villa: About the medicin called loṇasociraka, Kana will take time to go to Visit Wat Panha to ask her for detail  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 07 17:21:05
Johann: Cetana counts, the own one, Nyom.

2019 Nov 07 17:18:42
Johann: May Nyom not worry to much about it. My person guesses Nyom Chanroth might have lot of joy in the idea of planting. While Cacaco is fine, yet not a need or request, it's something that can be gained in shops.

2019 Nov 07 17:09:57
Cheav Villa: Kana now seen without Sila… someone could not tell the truth 

2019 Nov 07 17:01:13
Cheav Villa: Kana ordered 5kg via web, phoned them 2days ago but still no delivery cause of no confirmation since he still abroad now

2019 Nov 07 16:49:17
Cheav Villa: But the Cacao company in Mondolkiri doesnt allowed, they sale Cacao beans.

2019 Nov 07 16:47:38
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ as he informed to bring only Cacao fruits for Bhante could make and use of medecine againts Malaria

2019 Nov 07 16:20:48
Johann: Indeed releasing investigation cause hunger and no food can be expected at the end as well.

2019 Nov 07 16:18:35
Johann: When homeless effort is requested, no joy in sacrificing into it. Oh this monks... of modern world.  :)

2019 Nov 07 16:16:59
Johann: Oh this monks  :) When household effort can be made for favor and house, all engaged...

2019 Nov 07 14:17:18
Johann: Āyasmā Moritz (Master, a usual address for skilled lay people in the Tipitaka)

2019 Nov 06 17:27:06
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Nov 06 17:23:52
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Nov 06 17:23:46
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 06 00:13:12
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Nov 05 22:47:19
Moritz: Hello Visitor! _/\_

2019 Nov 05 16:44:34
Johann: ...and that is good! Cacao

2019 Nov 05 16:31:04
Cheav Villa: Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ :)

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!  (Read 386 times)

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Online Johann

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 06:24:10 AM »
However, you are beating at the wrong bush. I don't care about Western ideas of egalitarianism, nor do I care about creating new words for the Buddha just to make him appear especially great. What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.
...

Having now the needed bodily strength to read Lok Mcha's Ariyadhammika   's approach (of which Kana didn't tillyet), it totally matches the point behind the "imperators beard" and the purpose to make it an issue, since a refuge denying the heirs of the Buddha and their ways and customs, sometimes refuge even only toward the Dhamma, even denying it toward the giver, it's not only an incomplete and dangerously refuge, giving ways for all kinds of defilements, but as told, a matter of Sila, even a heavy one, disregarding the Sangha not perceiving it. May Bhante don't see anything here as not given for only longtime welfare although possible seeming like ill-will.

That's really the only and real importand issue here, and the rest isn't that much of any heartwood here for own path and that of many.

It's really not possibly to say it's traditionalist if denying direct ancestors but more in the sphere of rebellious, suggesting more direct lineage toward origin then parents. It's not easy that issue to overcome having grown up in post-modern societies, and yet, to get only this small seeming issue done, this fall on graditute, makes the refuge unshakable.

The notion of this kind of refuge, if just toward the Buddha, leads to Ven Chanda-Syndrome and if it then goes just toward Dhamma, is not just individual, but seeks for followers, it can grow to heavy relation toward Devadatta. Yet all the said is not easy to prove simply in and of itself in one self, not easy to look from outside, not personal touched, but exactly that to do is the purpose of the threefold Refuge and giving the own opinion the lowest value, total contrary as used to grow up.

It's not so, Bhante, that Kana speaks of things not knowing, not having had to challenge, without seeing how hard and "painfull" to master.

May the blessing that Bhante could find a good footfold here in his parents and his domain, help him to discover things so hard to trace in outer lands.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:40:48 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 03:18:26 AM »
Quote from: ??
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Thank you very much for sharing your understanding of the two types of kammanirodha, rebirth-productive kammanirodha for the living arahant, and all-action (by body, speech and mind) kammanirodha which takes place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

In Cetanā sutta (AN 4.171), the Buddha describes how all-action (by body, speech and mind) does not apply to the living arahant.


Kāye vā, bhikkhave, sati kāyasañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Vācāya vā, bhikkhave, sati vācīsañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Mane vā, bhikkhave, sati manosañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ avijjāpaccayā va.

"When there is the body, O Bhikkhus, with bodily intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is speech, O Bhikkhus, with verbal intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is the mind, O Bhikkhus, with mental intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain, all conditioned by ignorance."

...

Imesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu avijjā anupatitā. Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, sā vācā na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, so mano na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, khettaṃ taṃ na hoti, vatthum taṃ na hoti, āyatanaṃ taṃ na hoti, adhikaraṇaṃ taṃ na hoti, yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

"In all these cases, O Bhikkhus, ignorance hangs on. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain. That field (khettaṃ) does not exist, that ground (vatthum) does not exist, that base (ayatanam) does not exist, that case-because-of-which (adhikaraṇaṃ) does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain.



My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.

Offline saddhamma

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 03:49:42 AM »
Quote from: ??
What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
This is very well stated Bhante, not badly stated!
It is connected with welfare and happiness, not unconnected!

Since I too have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta on this very forum, may Bhante allow me to repeat Bhante’s fine statements:

What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Online Johann

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 04:33:12 AM »
Okasa

guessing that the basic issue of the topic and approach might have been seen, understood, and possible for one self "sacca ujju" proofed, having no doubt in relation of the fundamental things, Kana thought to illustrate the use of the meaning of "sammā kamma" in relation with the path and in relation with an Arahat for speech, as an example (likewise in all other ways of doing or doing of kamma:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā: musāvādā veramaṇī, pisunāya vācāya veramaṇī. Pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā.
 
Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā: yā kho bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgīno ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato catuhipi vacīduccaritehi ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā. So micchāvācāya pahānāya vāyamatī, sammā vācāya upasampadāya. Svāssa1 hoti sammāvāyāmo. So sato micchāvācaṃ pajahati. Sato sammāvācaṃ upasammajja viharati. Sāssa hoti sammāsati. Itissime2 tayo dhammā sammāvācaṃ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti. Seyyathīdaṃ: sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.


"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right speech, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.
Quote from: ??

In honor and devotion and for the purpose of purification with sublime perceptions, to make either merits in the world of progress on the path, devoted disciples and followers are using traditional there best and sublime words to denote higher and sublime, to express the proper classification, to steady reflect ones own position and that of others in a relation and to give by-sitting third orientation where to direct their ways to.

So is it the tradition, as exemple to distinguish between the speech of "householders" and "homeless", to lift the quality toward good perception, here, in the land of the Khema, to use word, verbs, adverbs, adjectives like "[buddhikara] (ga)tha", 'spoke [for the purpose/to effect awakening]', or "trung trach tha", 'spoke out of awakended position', when speaking about the conducts of the Sublime Buddha and his Monks.

Also in regard of conventionally hierarchy in orientation measured in worlds values, different words are used to give ways for reflecting ones position in relations and for orientation.

My person isn't familar with formal and polite speech in english, hasn't traced such in this realm, but it's possible by using longer strings "illustrating" to denote such also with languages certain void of distinction of conducts of different qualities, classification, something that goes along with giving value toward mind and reduce value in regard of products and productivity.

Being total opposite the global tendency and requiring a lot of sacrifices, focusing on deeds, turning aways from focus on fruits/product, it's not only a great field to work, but also a field of huge merits if finding objects worthy to sacrifices such.

In this manner my person ask's foremost those serving as object for others to purify themselves to lesser give easier ways and more familar but samples of Sublime as foremost gift for "children". If having troubles with receiving great gifts, honor, devotion from formal children, tending to improper modesty in a certain relation, then it's good to do not step down but fastly clean oneself so to be able to remain or become a real gift, a place to work and giving into as ni-mitta od the Tripple Gems.

It all has very sublime nuances which can be only learned if in near relation and association and for one taking on the training, all starts by the gross before going into the fine, body, speech and mind. Used to the different ideas, very gross defilements are often not seen like a carpenter would polish the bark of a tree in the forest thinking he nearly had finished to make a chair.

And again, please never put yourself above the position of your near parents, which isn't easy when comming from a culture where parents, nissaya, had been replaced by dependency on a large community, where community stands above parents and individual.

It's because of such wrong focus that it is only for those having changed ancestorsship no more possible to kill mother and father (people of great guṇa toward one), Arahats, harm the Sublime Buddha, Splitt the community of Sages and to hold grave wrong views, conducting in various form on them (ingratitude:rejecting basic right view, Sublime, distinctions, gifts...).

You all here have huge capability and skills to transport things pleasing by means of matters, skills which are traced by the senses, languages...

May it had helped to focus not on gain and productivity to nourish the world but to focus on giving the world possibilities to nourish Sublime and beyond, since the imperator lies beyond the bread but nevertheless this bread matters much for the world incl. the Emperor's Clothes as it isn't the tradition of the Jains.


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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 04:51:27 AM »
* Johann:

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Upasaka Ebo,

my person wouldn't suggest anybody to study Abhidhamma from books (aside of use as after dish, or if finding joy only there) and knows well the tendency of western/modern people, like one has gone a path already actually. And Nyom would know how different Atma teaches and focus here.

There is also a saying of near patents: focus on Vinaya endangers on build up strong mana, Suttas without Silas, lead to micchādiṭṭhi, and focus on Abhidhamma makes crazy.

You here in western/modern world might have still possibilities to use the left behind and it's only possible by really leaving ones home, old relations, to possible get other traditions, customs know or even become part of it.

Palace-talks and books, stories heard, seen from far aways can not make one meet the four Messangers.

There is all trust that Nyom will use all in best possible way for him as well and it wouldn't be wise not to make use of given and prefer to relay on things avaliable in usual way.

First Things First

It's really worthy to think of the possibility that some palace-dwell could be much smarter as a 2600 years stream of goodness without making use of others, but it is because of such perceptions the forests disappear and where people did not know hunger 1000 of years they now struggle next the farming industry having exchanged skills of old and heritage with smart new technology. And there is no more way that they could live in lesser dependency or dependency they could trace.

Some may be out there who can "scratch the bend" (lit. from German, better maybe Austrian language use)

Beware on relaying on not given copies of take copies not given, beware of thinking like a thief how ever justified it seems.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:07:01 PM by Johann »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 08:42:57 AM »
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for his response to my comments about putting the Abhidhamma and commentaries under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya. I don’t quite follow the message Bhante is trying to get across in his response. Perhaps Bhante can post the translation of Therasutta (AN 5.88) on this thread from a source that Bhante ”trusts” and we can have further discussions about why one needs to properly examine the teachings of the respected elders against the dhammavinaya if one is to avoid being misled. 

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 11:18:35 AM »
* Johann : May Nyom Ebo do so and there is really nothing to worry to find equal and good to go after if not finding, or till finding, tracing more Sublime and puñña kiriya vatthu. And it's good to trust things personally given by ones Nissaya who and his gifts aren't bond torward world. That is then when one starts to become bond to unbond, a Sekha, when only relaying on such, even the material and fine material gifts aren't much. (There was the topic on "debt but to whom" where my person mentioned Nyom short time before) But yet really the time for Nyom to practice lesser maintaining doubts, having traced pāsāda, then giving and let go, than leaving house "really" would work in this short time left. It will then, if successed in regard the first step toward path, turn out total different as thought before anyway or simply back again, so nothing to lose aside of returning.

Mudita
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:05:49 PM by Johann »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 12:03:10 PM »
My person thought of turning the topic more away from 'The Kamma of Arahants'!! to 'The Kamma of Arahants'?? and to investigate it from dhammic aspect. Seen that there are often different views in relation of a "living" or "death" one, my person thought of pumping up Upasaka Ebo's thoughts on the matter in response to Bhantes an nourish some ways of practicing with the very virtual (kammic) googlyana tradition and teaching and learning the/from the Devas:


My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.

Maybe, as just looked around, Upaya Sutta: Attached can help to release from landing and this Cetana Sutta: Intention from standing, in an Abhidhamma discussion that might be above Vinaya and Dhamma.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:41:00 PM by Johann »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 03:47:12 PM »
Okasa Bhante,

Arahants do deeds, but make neither merit nor demerit. In other words, their kamma is free of kamma. The Parivīmaṃsanasuttaṃ explains this, as follows:

Bhikkhus, if someone immersed in ignorance undertakes a deed that is meritorious, his consciousness is furnished with merit;
Avijjāgatoyaṃ bhikkhave purisapuggalo puññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti puññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is demeritorious, his consciousness is furnished with demerit;
Apuññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti apuññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is karmically neutral, his consciousness is furnished with what is karmically neutral.
Āneñjaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti āneñjūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.
Yato kho bhikkhave bhikkhuno avijjā pahīṇā hoti vijjā uppannā so avijjāvirāgā vijjūppādā neva puññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na apuññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na āneñjābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti (S.2.82).

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2019, 04:45:21 PM »
Sadhu, Sanghamitta Varado, for an additional way for satisfaction and release!

« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 05:01:59 PM by Varado »
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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2019, 04:59:16 PM »
Okasa bhante

The Nibbedhika Sutta shows the two meanings of kammanirodha. The arahant's new kamma ceases at his enlightenment. His old kamma ceases at his death.

• The bhikkhu... who is free of āsavas... undertakes no new kamma and nullifies previous kamma by the gradual experience [of its consequences].
☸ bhikkhu... anāsavaṃ... so navañca kammaṃ na karoti purāṇañca kammaṃ phussa phussa vyantīkaroti (A.3.414).

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2019, 06:46:12 AM »
On the matter, honored Buddhaparisada.

Some Venerables and learned lay followers are of the opinion, that the "untouched" awarness of the Arahat isn't a permanent, saying he can dwell in a worldly sphere or in a sphere beyond. Some say it's permanent. Yet it's mostly discussed in relation with experiances (which are generally also actions).

If taken the grammer "When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.

"Then, with" suggests a certain condition after the first, at least leaves it open. Not sure if "and by that" would make a grave different.

Further the Sublime Arahats are often urged in practicing (at least to dwell pleasant) of which the passage of the "kamma of Arahats" on the eightfold path, is one sample.

Maybe, aside of ways to try to nail thing donw, often effected by "Abhidhamma", this help practical for release, the root sequence, shortly cited here:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The common person:

..."He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you....

The Sekha:

..."He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you....

The Asekha, Arahat:

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.

For neither Sekahs nor Asekhas, certain a field of no release, the Sekha gets advices.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:11:28 AM by Johann »
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