Recent Topics

[December 13, 2019, 02:44:32 PM]

[December 13, 2019, 02:10:49 PM]

[December 13, 2019, 01:42:17 PM]

[December 13, 2019, 10:47:10 AM]

[December 12, 2019, 02:51:55 PM]

[December 12, 2019, 04:25:19 AM]

[December 11, 2019, 12:10:21 PM]

[December 11, 2019, 06:38:47 AM]

[December 10, 2019, 08:54:57 PM]

[December 10, 2019, 02:45:28 PM]

[December 08, 2019, 08:48:43 PM]

[December 07, 2019, 01:13:31 PM]

[December 07, 2019, 10:24:32 AM]

[December 05, 2019, 10:50:04 PM]

[December 05, 2019, 05:28:11 PM]

[December 05, 2019, 08:40:12 AM]

[December 04, 2019, 09:25:08 PM]

[December 04, 2019, 12:12:59 PM]

[December 04, 2019, 06:37:47 AM]

[December 04, 2019, 06:16:24 AM]

[December 03, 2019, 03:28:54 PM]

[December 03, 2019, 07:13:50 AM]

[December 02, 2019, 09:36:26 AM]

[December 02, 2019, 12:39:57 AM]

[December 01, 2019, 06:25:08 PM]

[November 30, 2019, 10:07:34 PM]

[November 30, 2019, 02:05:37 PM]

[November 29, 2019, 04:46:00 PM]

[November 29, 2019, 04:44:52 PM]

[November 29, 2019, 09:07:21 AM]

[November 28, 2019, 02:40:26 PM]

[November 28, 2019, 01:47:24 PM]

[November 28, 2019, 12:14:37 PM]

[November 27, 2019, 11:02:31 PM]

Talkbox

2019 Dec 14 11:44:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Dec 14 10:57:23
Moritz: Chom reap sour, bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 14 08:57:33
Khemakumara: សទ្ធា saddhā faith

2019 Dec 14 07:04:00
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 14 05:21:41
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_

2019 Dec 14 05:19:58
Khemakumara: May all living be-ings, seen and unseen be free from all dukkha. May it be a path- and fruitful day. 

2019 Dec 14 05:10:41
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 13 10:50:10
Johann: Called, one does not only look after to master, but also to maintain ones address proper, or?

2019 Dec 13 09:48:22
Danilo: Why 'master'?

2019 Dec 13 09:47:44
Danilo: Bhante Johann _/\_

2019 Dec 13 09:46:06
Johann: Master Danilo

2019 Dec 13 09:33:15
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 13 09:27:16
Johann: Nyom

2019 Dec 13 07:56:23
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 13 07:17:09
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 13 05:48:07
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Dec 13 05:36:56
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 12 04:26:54
Johann: Bhante Kheminda

2019 Dec 11 13:58:31
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Dec 11 12:50:57
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 11 12:10:02
Johann: Mudita

2019 Dec 11 12:06:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Kana sent to Pou Chanroth, he replied Bhante also told him at his home this morning  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 11:33:06
Johann: "As he is recollecting the Sangha, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when clothing is cleansed through the proper technique. "

2019 Dec 11 11:31:42
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu, recollecting the Sangha

2019 Dec 11 10:32:13
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 10:31:19
Cheav Villa: May this should be a path of Uposotha today Cleansing of defilement mind

2019 Dec 11 07:12:00
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 06:24:15
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Dec 11 05:12:53
Khemakumara: May it be a path- and fruitful Uposatha

2019 Dec 11 05:11:39
Khemakumara: "And what is the Uposatha of the Noble Ones? It is the cleansing of the defiled mind through the proper technique.

2019 Dec 10 21:14:57
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ I kana thought of Bhante in health condition or battery  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 12:01:52
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:21:08
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ the landowner would be off the gate way soon? _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:11:11
Johann: Sokh chomreoun all

2019 Dec 10 11:08:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:08:02
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 10:48:07
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 09 23:28:27
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Dec 07 09:19:49
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:56:53
Johann: sokh chomreoun, nyom

2019 Dec 05 09:56:09
Moritz: Taking leave. May Bhante dwell in good health _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:46:00
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:14:32
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_

2019 Dec 05 08:09:04
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 04 20:16:08
saddhamma:  _/\_Bhante Johann. Wishing you speedy recovery.

2019 Dec 04 07:35:06
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:36:37
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:32:33
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Dec 04 06:31:50
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom (May welbeing increase)

2019 Dec 04 06:31:50
Moritz: May all spend a good Uposatha _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:31:42
Khemakumara: May all have a path- and fruiful Uposatha

2019 Dec 04 06:31:34
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:31:28
Moritz: Vandami Bhante Khemakumara _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:08:13
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 04 01:50:53
saddhamma: Āvuso Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 04 01:15:40
Moritz: Bong Ebo _/\_

2019 Dec 01 13:29:37
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 21:38:39
Johann: Nyom

2019 Nov 30 21:30:49
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 19:04:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Khemakumara  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 17:34:10
Khemakumara: Nyom

2019 Nov 30 16:43:46
Johann: Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 30 06:46:37
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Nov 29 20:24:07
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 18:59:11
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu Sadhu

2019 Nov 29 16:01:17
Johann: Ratana Sutta , and one more public.

2019 Nov 29 14:25:08
Cheav Villa:   _/\_ Yes, eveyone here got flu and almost everywhere..  :-\ :) _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:19:23
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_ Yes, sickness very much present here as well.  :-\  :)

2019 Nov 29 14:18:08
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:12:37
Johann: (May all and everyone get soon/quick free fom sickness) Sadhu

2019 Nov 29 14:07:13
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយអ្នកទាំងអស់គ្នាឆាប់ជាពីរោគា គ្រប់ៗគ្នា _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:05:22
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាពីជម្ងឺផ្តាសាយ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 12:05:41
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Nov 29 11:51:15
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Nov 28 20:08:22
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 28 13:11:37
Johann: Bhante

2019 Nov 28 12:52:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Nov 27 23:19:47
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 27 22:59:18
Khemakumara: Nyom

2019 Nov 27 10:20:04
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 27 10:16:58
Khemakumara: May it be a path -and fruitful after-the-Newmoon-uposatha-day

2019 Nov 26 20:55:22
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 26 19:35:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 26 11:50:14
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 26 10:53:53
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 26 09:24:16
Johann: A blessed and united Newmoon uposatha all touchable and taking on it

2019 Nov 26 08:53:07
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 26 00:07:54
Johann: Moi, moi, Nyom. Ma dom ma chumheang (Slowly, slowly... step by step) much joy in all good virtuous undertakings.

2019 Nov 25 23:46:46
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ (many things to do...)

2019 Nov 25 23:28:18
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 25 23:04:36
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 22:55:28
Johann: Nyom

2019 Nov 24 22:51:00
saddhamma: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 16:27:57
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 16:01:25
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 24 13:04:02
Johann: May one not feel disturbed while my person might share merits in many different topics, as just possibility. Anumodana

2019 Nov 22 20:01:23
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Nov 22 19:49:34
Johann: talkbox isn't good for more then Abhivadana, hello... wishes, metta spreading, similar.

2019 Nov 22 19:47:27
Johann: Visitor, as well as Nyom Vivek, can write in topics, maybe start even one. It's, the issue, isn't understandable.

2019 Nov 22 19:40:12
Visitor: 2nd one is unrecoverable and unreachable(forgotten password)

Tipitaka Khmer

 Please feel welcome to join the transcription project of the Tipitaka translation in khmer, and share one of your favorite Sutta or more. Simply click here or visit the Forum: 

Search ATI on ZzE

Zugang zur Einsicht - Schriften aus der Theravada Tradition



Access to Insight / Zugang zur Einsicht: Dhamma-Suche auf mehr als 4000 Webseiten (deutsch / english) - ohne zu googeln, andere Ressourcen zu nehmen, weltliche Verpflichtungen einzugehen. Sie sind für den Zugang zur Einsicht herzlich eingeladen diese Möglichkeit zu nutzen. (Info)

Random Sutta
Random Article
Random Jataka

Zufälliges Sutta
Zufälliger Artikel
Zufälliges Jataka


Arbeits/Work Forum ZzE

"Dhammatalks.org":
[logo dhammatalks.org]
Random Talk
[pic 30]

Dear Visitor!

Herzlich Willkommen auf sangham.net! Welcome to sangham.net!
Ehrenwerter Gast, fühlen sie sich willkommen!

Sie können sich gerne auch unangemeldet an jeder Diskussion beteiligen und eine Antwort posten. Auch ist es Ihnen möglich, ein Post oder ein Thema an die Moderatoren zu melden, sei es nun, um ein Lob auszusprechen oder um zu tadeln. Beides ist willkommen, wenn es gut gemeint und umsichtig ist. Lesen Sie mehr dazu im Beitrag: Melden/Kommentieren von Postings für Gäste
Sie können sich aber auch jederzeit anmelden oder sich via Email einladen und anmelden lassen oder als "Visitor" einloggen, und damit stehen Ihnen noch viel mehr Möglichkeiten frei. Nutzen Sie auch die Möglichkeit einen Segen auszusprechen oder ein Räucherstäbchen anzuzünden und wir freuen uns, wenn Sie sich auch als Besucher kurz vorstellen oder Hallo sagen .
Wir wünschen viel Freude beim Nutzen und Entdecken des Forums mit all seinen nützlichen Möglichkeiten .
 
Wählen Sie Ihre bevorzugte Sprache rechts oben neben dem Suchfenster.

Wähle Sprache / Choose Language / เลือก ภาษา / ជ្រើសយកភាសា: ^ ^
 Venerated Visitor, feel heartily welcome!
You are able to participate in discussions and post even without registration. You are also able to report a post or topic to the moderators, may it be praise or a rebuke. Both is welcome if it is meant with good will and care. Read more about it within the post: Report/comment posts for guests
But you can also register any time or get invited and registered in the way to request via Email , or log in as "Visitor". If you are logged in you will have more additional possibilities. Please feel free to use the possibility to  give a blessing or light an incent stick and we are honored if you introduce yourself or say "Hello" even if you are on a short visit.
We wish you much joy in using and exploring the forum with all its useful possibilities  
Choose your preferred language on the right top corner next to the search window!
[Buddha]

Author Topic: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!  (Read 1900 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 06:24:10 AM »
However, you are beating at the wrong bush. I don't care about Western ideas of egalitarianism, nor do I care about creating new words for the Buddha just to make him appear especially great. What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.
...

Having now the needed bodily strength to read Lok Mcha's Ariyadhammika   's approach (of which Kana didn't tillyet), it totally matches the point behind the "imperators beard" and the purpose to make it an issue, since a refuge denying the heirs of the Buddha and their ways and customs, sometimes refuge even only toward the Dhamma, even denying it toward the giver, it's not only an incomplete and dangerously refuge, giving ways for all kinds of defilements, but as told, a matter of Sila, even a heavy one, disregarding the Sangha not perceiving it. May Bhante don't see anything here as not given for only longtime welfare although possible seeming like ill-will.

That's really the only and real importand issue here, and the rest isn't that much of any heartwood here for own path and that of many.

It's really not possibly to say it's traditionalist if denying direct ancestors but more in the sphere of rebellious, suggesting more direct lineage toward origin then parents. It's not easy that issue to overcome having grown up in post-modern societies, and yet, to get only this small seeming issue done, this fall on graditute, makes the refuge unshakable.

The notion of this kind of refuge, if just toward the Buddha, leads to Ven Chanda-Syndrome and if it then goes just toward Dhamma, is not just individual, but seeks for followers, it can grow to heavy relation toward Devadatta. Yet all the said is not easy to prove simply in and of itself in one self, not easy to look from outside, not personal touched, but exactly that to do is the purpose of the threefold Refuge and giving the own opinion the lowest value, total contrary as used to grow up.

It's not so, Bhante, that Kana speaks of things not knowing, not having had to challenge, without seeing how hard and "painfull" to master.

May the blessing that Bhante could find a good footfold here in his parents and his domain, help him to discover things so hard to trace in outer lands.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:40:48 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 03:18:26 AM »
Quote from: ??
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Thank you very much for sharing your understanding of the two types of kammanirodha, rebirth-productive kammanirodha for the living arahant, and all-action (by body, speech and mind) kammanirodha which takes place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

In Cetanā sutta (AN 4.171), the Buddha describes how all-action (by body, speech and mind) does not apply to the living arahant.


Kāye vā, bhikkhave, sati kāyasañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Vācāya vā, bhikkhave, sati vācīsañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Mane vā, bhikkhave, sati manosañcetanā hetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ avijjāpaccayā va.

"When there is the body, O Bhikkhus, with bodily intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is speech, O Bhikkhus, with verbal intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain; when there is the mind, O Bhikkhus, with mental intention as cause, there arises inward pleasure and pain, all conditioned by ignorance."

...

Imesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu avijjā anupatitā. Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, sā vācā na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, so mano na hoti yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, khettaṃ taṃ na hoti, vatthum taṃ na hoti, āyatanaṃ taṃ na hoti, adhikaraṇaṃ taṃ na hoti, yaṃ paccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

"In all these cases, O Bhikkhus, ignorance hangs on. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain. That field (khettaṃ) does not exist, that ground (vatthum) does not exist, that base (ayatanam) does not exist, that case-because-of-which (adhikaraṇaṃ) does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain.



My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.

Offline saddhamma

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 03:49:42 AM »
Quote from: ??
What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
This is very well stated Bhante, not badly stated!
It is connected with welfare and happiness, not unconnected!

Since I too have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta on this very forum, may Bhante allow me to repeat Bhante’s fine statements:

What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.

I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 04:33:12 AM »
Okasa

guessing that the basic issue of the topic and approach might have been seen, understood, and possible for one self "sacca ujju" proofed, having no doubt in relation of the fundamental things, Kana thought to illustrate the use of the meaning of "sammā kamma" in relation with the path and in relation with an Arahat for speech, as an example (likewise in all other ways of doing or doing of kamma:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā: musāvādā veramaṇī, pisunāya vācāya veramaṇī. Pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā.
 
Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā: yā kho bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgīno ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato catuhipi vacīduccaritehi ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā. So micchāvācāya pahānāya vāyamatī, sammā vācāya upasampadāya. Svāssa1 hoti sammāvāyāmo. So sato micchāvācaṃ pajahati. Sato sammāvācaṃ upasammajja viharati. Sāssa hoti sammāsati. Itissime2 tayo dhammā sammāvācaṃ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti. Seyyathīdaṃ: sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.


"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right speech, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.
Quote from: ??

In honor and devotion and for the purpose of purification with sublime perceptions, to make either merits in the world of progress on the path, devoted disciples and followers are using traditional there best and sublime words to denote higher and sublime, to express the proper classification, to steady reflect ones own position and that of others in a relation and to give by-sitting third orientation where to direct their ways to.

So is it the tradition, as exemple to distinguish between the speech of "householders" and "homeless", to lift the quality toward good perception, here, in the land of the Khema, to use word, verbs, adverbs, adjectives like "[buddhikara] (ga)tha", 'spoke [for the purpose/to effect awakening]', or "trung trach tha", 'spoke out of awakended position', when speaking about the conducts of the Sublime Buddha and his Monks.

Also in regard of conventionally hierarchy in orientation measured in worlds values, different words are used to give ways for reflecting ones position in relations and for orientation.

My person isn't familar with formal and polite speech in english, hasn't traced such in this realm, but it's possible by using longer strings "illustrating" to denote such also with languages certain void of distinction of conducts of different qualities, classification, something that goes along with giving value toward mind and reduce value in regard of products and productivity.

Being total opposite the global tendency and requiring a lot of sacrifices, focusing on deeds, turning aways from focus on fruits/product, it's not only a great field to work, but also a field of huge merits if finding objects worthy to sacrifices such.

In this manner my person ask's foremost those serving as object for others to purify themselves to lesser give easier ways and more familar but samples of Sublime as foremost gift for "children". If having troubles with receiving great gifts, honor, devotion from formal children, tending to improper modesty in a certain relation, then it's good to do not step down but fastly clean oneself so to be able to remain or become a real gift, a place to work and giving into as ni-mitta od the Tripple Gems.

It all has very sublime nuances which can be only learned if in near relation and association and for one taking on the training, all starts by the gross before going into the fine, body, speech and mind. Used to the different ideas, very gross defilements are often not seen like a carpenter would polish the bark of a tree in the forest thinking he nearly had finished to make a chair.

And again, please never put yourself above the position of your near parents, which isn't easy when comming from a culture where parents, nissaya, had been replaced by dependency on a large community, where community stands above parents and individual.

It's because of such wrong focus that it is only for those having changed ancestorsship no more possible to kill mother and father (people of great guṇa toward one), Arahats, harm the Sublime Buddha, Splitt the community of Sages and to hold grave wrong views, conducting in various form on them (ingratitude:rejecting basic right view, Sublime, distinctions, gifts...).

You all here have huge capability and skills to transport things pleasing by means of matters, skills which are traced by the senses, languages...

May it had helped to focus not on gain and productivity to nourish the world but to focus on giving the world possibilities to nourish Sublime and beyond, since the imperator lies beyond the bread but nevertheless this bread matters much for the world incl. the Emperor's Clothes as it isn't the tradition of the Jains.


This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 04:51:27 AM »
* Johann:

Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Upasaka Ebo,

my person wouldn't suggest anybody to study Abhidhamma from books (aside of use as after dish, or if finding joy only there) and knows well the tendency of western/modern people, like one has gone a path already actually. And Nyom would know how different Atma teaches and focus here.

There is also a saying of near patents: focus on Vinaya endangers on build up strong mana, Suttas without Silas, lead to micchādiṭṭhi, and focus on Abhidhamma makes crazy.

You here in western/modern world might have still possibilities to use the left behind and it's only possible by really leaving ones home, old relations, to possible get other traditions, customs know or even become part of it.

Palace-talks and books, stories heard, seen from far aways can not make one meet the four Messangers.

There is all trust that Nyom will use all in best possible way for him as well and it wouldn't be wise not to make use of given and prefer to relay on things avaliable in usual way.

First Things First

It's really worthy to think of the possibility that some palace-dwell could be much smarter as a 2600 years stream of goodness without making use of others, but it is because of such perceptions the forests disappear and where people did not know hunger 1000 of years they now struggle next the farming industry having exchanged skills of old and heritage with smart new technology. And there is no more way that they could live in lesser dependency or dependency they could trace.

Some may be out there who can "scratch the bend" (lit. from German, better maybe Austrian language use)

Beware on relaying on not given copies of take copies not given, beware of thinking like a thief how ever justified it seems.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:07:01 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 08:42:57 AM »
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for his response to my comments about putting the Abhidhamma and commentaries under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya. I don’t quite follow the message Bhante is trying to get across in his response. Perhaps Bhante can post the translation of Therasutta (AN 5.88) on this thread from a source that Bhante ”trusts” and we can have further discussions about why one needs to properly examine the teachings of the respected elders against the dhammavinaya if one is to avoid being misled. 

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 11:18:35 AM »
* Johann : May Nyom Ebo do so and there is really nothing to worry to find equal and good to go after if not finding, or till finding, tracing more Sublime and puñña kiriya vatthu. And it's good to trust things personally given by ones Nissaya who and his gifts aren't bond torward world. That is then when one starts to become bond to unbond, a Sekha, when only relaying on such, even the material and fine material gifts aren't much. (There was the topic on "debt but to whom" where my person mentioned Nyom short time before) But yet really the time for Nyom to practice lesser maintaining doubts, having traced pāsāda, then giving and let go, than leaving house "really" would work in this short time left. It will then, if successed in regard the first step toward path, turn out total different as thought before anyway or simply back again, so nothing to lose aside of returning.

Mudita
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:05:49 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 12:03:10 PM »
My person thought of turning the topic more away from 'The Kamma of Arahants'!! to 'The Kamma of Arahants'?? and to investigate it from dhammic aspect. Seen that there are often different views in relation of a "living" or "death" one, my person thought of pumping up Upasaka Ebo's thoughts on the matter in response to Bhantes an nourish some ways of practicing with the very virtual (kammic) googlyana tradition and teaching and learning the/from the Devas:


My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.

May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.

Maybe, as just looked around, Upaya Sutta: Attached can help to release from landing and this Cetana Sutta: Intention from standing, in an Abhidhamma discussion that might be above Vinaya and Dhamma.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:41:00 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Varado

  • Sanghamitta
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +5/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Sanghamitta
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 03:47:12 PM »
Okasa Bhante,

Arahants do deeds, but make neither merit nor demerit. In other words, their kamma is free of kamma. The Parivīmaṃsanasuttaṃ explains this, as follows:

Bhikkhus, if someone immersed in ignorance undertakes a deed that is meritorious, his consciousness is furnished with merit;
Avijjāgatoyaṃ bhikkhave purisapuggalo puññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti puññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is demeritorious, his consciousness is furnished with demerit;
Apuññaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti apuññopagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

If he undertakes a deed that is karmically neutral, his consciousness is furnished with what is karmically neutral.
Āneñjaṃ ce saṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti āneñjūpagaṃ hoti viññāṇaṃ.

When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.
Yato kho bhikkhave bhikkhuno avijjā pahīṇā hoti vijjā uppannā so avijjāvirāgā vijjūppādā neva puññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na apuññābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti na āneñjābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti (S.2.82).

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2019, 04:45:21 PM »
Sadhu, Sanghamitta Varado, for an additional way for satisfaction and release!

« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 05:01:59 PM by Varado »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Varado

  • Sanghamitta
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +5/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Sanghamitta
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2019, 04:59:16 PM »
Okasa bhante

The Nibbedhika Sutta shows the two meanings of kammanirodha. The arahant's new kamma ceases at his enlightenment. His old kamma ceases at his death.

• The bhikkhu... who is free of āsavas... undertakes no new kamma and nullifies previous kamma by the gradual experience [of its consequences].
☸ bhikkhu... anāsavaṃ... so navañca kammaṃ na karoti purāṇañca kammaṃ phussa phussa vyantīkaroti (A.3.414).

Offline Johann

  • Samanera
  • Very Engaged Member
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +369/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2019, 06:46:12 AM »
On the matter, honored Buddhaparisada.

Some Venerables and learned lay followers are of the opinion, that the "untouched" awarness of the Arahat isn't a permanent, saying he can dwell in a worldly sphere or in a sphere beyond. Some say it's permanent. Yet it's mostly discussed in relation with experiances (which are generally also actions).

If taken the grammer "When a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not undertake a deed that is meritorious, demeritorious, or karmically neutral.

"Then, with" suggests a certain condition after the first, at least leaves it open. Not sure if "and by that" would make a grave different.

Further the Sublime Arahats are often urged in practicing (at least to dwell pleasant) of which the passage of the "kamma of Arahats" on the eightfold path, is one sample.

Maybe, aside of ways to try to nail thing donw, often effected by "Abhidhamma", this help practical for release, the root sequence, shortly cited here:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The common person:

..."He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you....

The Sekha:

..."He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you....

The Asekha, Arahat:

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.

For neither Sekahs nor Asekhas, certain a field of no release, the Sekha gets advices.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:11:28 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Ariyadhammika

  • Senior Bhikkhu
  • Regular Member / Normales Mitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +10/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Monastery Admin
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 14.07.2005
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2019, 08:03:38 PM »

"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."


To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.

Dear saddhamma ,

The way I read the passage is, that it is trying to say that the conditioning power of an Arahant's actions by body, speech and mind does not exist anymore. There will be no kammic results (vipāka) as the consequence of his actions by body speech and mind.
I do not take this passage to mean that an Arahant has no more body, no more speech and no more mind.
In fact, it almost sounds absurd to say that the body comprised of the 4 great elements does not exist anymore after one has attained Arahantship.
However, it is not absurd at all to say that an Arahant's bodily actions etc. lack the basis to accumulate productive kamma (kammavipāka), because ignorance has been eliminated and therefore there being no more basis for the generation of kammic fruits based on actions by body, speech or mind.

As the sutta says, "that body/speech/mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
It does not say, that there is no more body/speech/mind altogether.
I would rather understand it to mean that an Arahant's actions do not produce future pleasure and pain, yet he experiences pleaseure and pain as the fruits of past kamma until he attains khandhaparinibbāna. Clearly the Buddha and other Arahants experienced physical pain. They even took medicine to overcome their ailments (e.g. Sāriputta requested garlic at some point).

This goes to show that they still have a body, speech and mind and the noble eightfold path for them is complete with eight factors, including right livelihood, right speech, and right view.

What do you think about this, Saddhamma?

* Johann : corrected bbcode-error. An mention, to avoid possible feeling of impolite, overseen that have been adressed.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 08:25:56 PM by Johann »

Offline saddhamma

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2019, 10:05:59 PM »

"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."


To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.

Dear saddhamma ,

The way I read the passage is, that it is trying to say that the conditioning power of an Arahant's actions by body, speech and mind does not exist anymore. There will be no kammic results (vipāka) as the consequence of his actions by body speech and mind.
I do not take this passage to mean that an Arahant has no more body, no more speech and no more mind.
In fact, it almost sounds absurd to say that the body comprised of the 4 great elements does not exist anymore after one has attained Arahantship.
However, it is not absurd at all to say that an Arahant's bodily actions etc. lack the basis to accumulate productive kamma (kammavipāka), because ignorance has been eliminated and therefore there being no more basis for the generation of kammic fruits based on actions by body, speech or mind.

As the sutta says, "that body/speech/mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
It does not say, that there is no more body/speech/mind altogether.
I would rather understand it to mean that an Arahant's actions do not produce future pleasure and pain, yet he experiences pleaseure and pain as the fruits of past kamma until he attains khandhaparinibbāna. Clearly the Buddha and other Arahants experienced physical pain. They even took medicine to overcome their ailments (e.g. Sāriputta requested garlic at some point).

This goes to show that they still have a body, speech and mind and the noble eightfold path for them is complete with eight factors, including right livelihood, right speech, and right view.

What do you think about this, Saddhamma?

* Johann : corrected bbcode-error. An mention, to avoid possible feeling of impolite, overseen that have been adressed.

Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,
Thanks to Bhante for pointing out the obvious implications of my statement, for Bhante is quite correct that this sutta does not imply that there is no body/speech/mind for the arahant. Perhaps my wording could have been more precise to say that for the arahant, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist "as we know it" for such a designation to apply.

I think the question that arahants do not create any kamma is well settled, so I take the main purpose of Bhante's article as an attempt to answer the question of how to designate the activities of an arahant, whether as kamma or kiriya or both or neither (similar to the Abhidhamma's attempts to simplify the Buddha's teachings). I brought in this sutta to the discussion to beg the question whether the activities of an arahant can be designated at all given that it is out of the range of our body/speech/mind experiences.

For what "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "done is what is to be done" (kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ). What "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "there is nothing further to be done" (natthi kiñci uttari karaṇīyaṃ)? What "doings" could be designated to the one for whom "there is no addition of what is done" (natthi katassa paṭicayo)? My suggestion for Bhante's article is that perhaps it is better for Bhante to use the Buddha's own designation of the activities of the arahant as kammanirodha, even if we don't understand what this designation mean, and will not understand it until we become arahants ourselves. What does Bhante think of this suggestion?

Offline saddhamma

  • Sanghamitta
  • Full Member / Vollmitglied
  • *
  • Sadhu! or +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2019, 12:04:12 AM »
 _/\_ Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,

I have been giving Bhante's kamma-of-arahants view {as I perceive it} more thought and would like to offer the following critique and repudiation of the arguments that Bhante has put forth in support for designating the arahant's actions as kamma {at least suggesting that it is fine to use same word}. I hope that this more direct approach will give Bhante a more convincing reason for my suggestion to use the Buddha's own designation of "kammanirodha" to designate the actions of arahants {if this is actually the matters ground}.

I will analyze the arguments that Bhante has used {as I perceived them} to justify the kamma-of-arahants view in order to show {in my approach} the following:

  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without contradicting the four noble truths.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without proliferating that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

May Bhante forgive me if my critique of Bhante's arguments in these analyses comes off as offensive in any way, for that is not my motive.

May Bhante kindly point out any flaws in these analyses that Bhante may find, or provide feedback on any misinterpretations or unjustified deductions from Bhante's arguments, out of compassion.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

* Saddhamma:  In my translations for the suttas used in these analyses, I will leave saṅkhārā untranslated since being a negative, there is no satisfactory English word to capture its full meaning. However, the instantiations of saṅkhārā (abhisaṅkharonti) and the resulting instances (saṅkhata) can be reluctantly rendered in English as "precondition" and "the conditioned" respectively. Dhamma is also left untranslated due to its broad range of meanings. Papañcā is translated as proliferations where needed, otherwise, it is left untranslated. Here, the following definition of precondition is used for translating abhisaṅkharonti:

Precondition: the act of preparing something for a subsequent action

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a contradiction to Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths

To justify the {a} kamma-of-arahants view {if that was the purpose of the essay}, Bhante writes:

Quote
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Here, Bhante introduces an {lit.} abhhidhamma style re-definition of kammanirodha as rebirth-productive kammanirodha upon the attainment of arahantship, and all-action (by body, speech or mind) kammanirodha at the time of the  Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna. Bhante introduces a term khandhaparinibbāna which I am unable to find
in the suttas. Neither is there any distinction in the suttas between nibbana at the time of arahantship attainment (sandiṭṭhikanibbāna), and parinibbāna (see AN 9.47-49 ). I understand that Bhante is using this term to refer to the arahant's [final] "cessation of the six sense bases of contact", so I will use this phrasing instead, to make it easier for those who are not familiar with abhidhamma or commentarial terms. Let us {me try to} analyze Bhante's {possible} re-definition of kammanirodha from the perspective of the kammanirodha sutta to see if it {my perception of it} is {could be} justified.

To aid analysis, I attempt a more direct rendition of the kammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 ) as follows.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“navapurāṇāni , bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kammanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmīti.

"O bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and do mind it well, I will speak."

katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ?
cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ...pe.... mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is old kamma?
The eye, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen. ...pe.... The mind, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen.
This is called, O bhikkhus, old kamma.

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho?
yo kho, bhikkhave, kāyakammavacīkammamanokammassa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho.

And what, O bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma?
[That] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the cessation of kamma.

katamā ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā?
ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ -- sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, is the path leading to the cessation of kamma?
It is just this noble eightfold path, that is -- right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood , right effort, right mindfulness, right samādhi.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the path leading to the cessation of kamma.

]iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā. yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchāvippaṭisārino ahuvattha. ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

“Thus, O bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever should be done, O bhikkhus, by a teacher for his disciples, desiring their welfare, having pity for them, that has been done for you by me, out of compassion. These are the feet of trees, O bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Cultivate jhāna, O bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

The kammanirodha sutta is a formulation of the four noble truths  in terms of kamma instead of dukkha as expressed in the standard formulation.

To show that the kamma formulation is equivalent to the standard formulation, it is shown that each noble truth in the standard formulation is equivalent to the corresponding noble truth in the kamma formulation as follows:

The standard formulation identifies the five holding aggregates as suffering in brief (saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā), indicating that the six sense bases (old kamma) must be identified as suffering in the kamma formulation. Let's see if that is the case. From the mahāhatthipadopama sutta (MN 28 ), we know that each sense base of contact arises with the five holding aggregates. Thus, the arising of the sense bases of contact is the arising of suffering. So we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the first noble truth.

The second noble truth in the standard formulation defines craving as the origination of suffering, whereas the kamma formulation defines "whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind" (new kamma) as the origination of suffering. This implies that the arising of present bodily, verbal or mental action is the arising of craving. This is consistent with the Buddha's designation of kamma in the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 [112]) as either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma, which is applicable only to those who have not destroyed craving. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the second noble truth.

The third noble truth in the standard formulation defines the destruction of craving as the cessation of suffering, whereas the third noble truth in the kamma formulation defines "[that] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action" (kammanirodha) as the cessation of suffering. In the suttas, we find that the destruction of kamma is synonymous with the destruction of craving. For example, here is a verse from the pārāyanavagga (Snp 5.0 ) by a deva extolling the Buddha's destruction of all kamma.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“so hi brāhmaṇa sambuddho, sabbadhammāna pāragū.
sabbābhiññābalappatto, sabbadhammesu cakkhumā.
sabbakammakkhayaṃ patto, vimutto upadhikkhaye.

He is a Sambuddha, brahmin, a transcender of all dhammas,
Having attained all higher knowledges and powers, endowed with eye in all dhammas,
he has attained to the destruction of all kamma, liberated through the destruction of all appropriations.

And here is a verse where the Buddha himself extolls the arahant's abandonment of all kamma in the mahaviyuha sutta (Snp 4.13 ).

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

sīlabbataṃ vāpi pahāya sabbaṃ
kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṃ
suddhī asuddhī ti apatthayāno
virato care santimanuggahāya

Having abandoned all virtue and observances
and kamma, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.

So from these examples, the destruction of craving is the destruction of action. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the third noble truth.

The agreement between the standard formulation and the kamma formulation for the forth noble truth is self-evident and need no further elaboration.

Thus, the kammanirodha sutta can be summarize as follows:

  • The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind bases of contact (old kamma) is suffering. It must be fully comprehended.
  • Whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind (new kamma) is the origination of suffering. It must be abandoned.
  • Attainment of liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action (kammanirodha) is the cessation of suffering. It must be realized.
  • Just this noble eightfold path is the path leading to the cessation of suffering (kamma). It must be cultivated.

So we see that the kammanorodha sutta is a deep exposition of the four noble truths.

If we go by Bhante's re-definition of kammanirodha that the arahant only realizes half of kammanirodha upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact, we have to conclude, for the sake of consistency with the four noble truths, that the arahant only realizes half of the cessation of suffering upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact. But this is a grave contradiction of the four noble truths as taught by the Buddha. Thus, we see that designating the arahant's action as kamma by re-defining kammanirodha contradicts the Buddha's teaching of the four noble truths.

The kammanirodha sutta, along with other suttas that are quoted at the beginning of the kamma-of-arahants article, namely the nidāna sutta (AN 3.34 ), mahānidāna sutta (DN 15 ), and paṭhamasikkhāpada sutta (AN 4.235 ), are all very deep suttas where the Buddha illucidates the finer aspects of the supramundane right view of kamma and paṭicca samuppāda. They are deep in meaning (gambhīratthā), world transcending (lokuttara), connected with emptiness (suññatapaṭisaṃyuttā). They belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to disenchantment (nibbidā), to fading away (virāga), to cessation (nirodha), to nibbāna.

The faults I see with the article is that it reduces these deep expositions on the dhamma dealing with supramundane right view which has the deathless as its destination, to mundane right view which only swells the cemeteries. The abhidhamma style oversimplification of these expositions brings the article to an anticlimax when the following question is posed:

Quote
At this point it may also be relevant to investigate who the recipient of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is. The doer himself, or others? The answer is found in the following stock-phrases in the discourses:  “I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.” (AN 10.48 )

“Beings are owners of their actions, student, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes beings as inferior and superior.” (MN 135 )

Perhaps the sutta translations used in the article, some of which betray a bias towards traditional commentaries, contributed to the oversimplification of these deep suttas. For example, in the translation of kammanirodha sutta used in the article, a "doer" is arbitrarily inserted into the phrasing where a "doer" is not necessary in the context of the kammanirodha sutta. Thus, the right phrasing of the dhamma is lost, leading to the wrong interpretations and the posing of mundane questions that does not fit the context. The Buddha's exposition of the four noble truths in the kammanirodha sutta is in the context of supramundane (lokuttara) right view, where the four noble truths are phrased in terms of the six sense bases, bodily, verbal and mental actions, liberation attainment through cessation of bodily, verbal and mental action, and path. There need not be any reference to a "doer" in this formulation. As the Buddha makes clear in the moḷiyaphagguna sutta (SN 12.12 ) and acelakassapa sutta (SN 12.17 ), such a question as to whether the doer himself or others are the recipients of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is not a valid question in this context. Thus, the answer the article offers is not a valid answer and sides with the eternalists view, misrepresenting the Buddha's supramundane right view teachings in this context. In this context, the correct question to pose is, "with what as condition does the results of kamma come to be?" And the proper answer is "with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, holding;  with holding as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, physical suffering, mental suffering and despair. Such is the origination of this whole mass of suffering".

After this anticlimax, the article continues to diverge from the deep suttas it quotes at the beginning, straying further and further from the well proclaimed Dhamma into abhidhamma doctrine, before arriving at the conclusion that the actions of arahants can be designated as kamma or kiriya. As the following quotes from the suttas will show, Bhante's speculations about the arahant at the time of his or her [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact to justify this conclusion is [might be] unwarranted papañcā.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants" view by way of exposing unwarranted papañcā
Let's subject the following statement by Bhante to further scrutiny in light of the suttas to show that it is unwarranted papañcā.

Quote
Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

From the sekha sutta (SN 48.53 ), the Buddha explains one beyond training as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, asekho bhikkhucha indriyāni pajānāti.
‘Cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ—’imāni kho cha indriyāni sabbena sabbaṃsabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhissanti, aññāni ca cha indriyāni na kuhiñci kismiñciuppajjissantī’ti pajānāti.
Ayampi kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃpariyāyaṃ āgamma asekho bhikkhuasekhabhūmiyaṃ ṭhito ‘asekhosmī’ti pajānātī”ti.

Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is one beyond training wisely understands the six faculties—the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty, the mind faculty. He wisely understands: ‘These six faculties will cease completely and totally without remainder, and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in any way.’ This too is a method by means of which a bhikkhu who is beyond training, standing on the plane of one beyond training, wisely understands: ‘I am one beyond training.’”

So we see that the time of the arahant's exhaustion of life, the breakup of the body, is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact. The kotthita sutta (AN 4.173 ) makes it clear that any speculations with reference to the cessation of the six sense bases of contact is unwarranted papañcā.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthi ca natthi ca aññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā nevatthi no natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti.

"Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is something else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is both something else and nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is neither something else nor nothing else,' one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated."

]yāvatā, āvuso, channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati tāvatā papañcassa gati; yāvatā papañcassa gati tāvatā channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati. channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.

Friend, as far as the range of the six bases of contact extends, just so far extends the range of papañcā. As far as the range of papañcā extends, just so far extends the range of the six bases for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact there is the cessation of papañcā, the subsiding of papañcā."

From this sutta, we see that even the very notion that the arahant has some all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind (a something else) left to be abandoned at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, or half a kammanirodha to be attained at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, is a proliferation of that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.

Given the qualities of the well proclaimed Dhamma as: 'The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One (svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo), directly visible [in this very life] (sandiṭṭhiko), not involving time (akāliko), [inviting one to] come and see (ehipassiko), leading onwards (opanāyiko), to be personally experienced by the wise (paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī), the arahant need not wait for the breakup of the body before attaining the cessation of all action. So we see that there is no justification for re-defining the Buddha's definition of kammanirodha to fit the kamma-of-arahant thesis.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a self-contradiction

The following analysis will show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

Now let's analyze Bhante's main argument for justifying the kamma-of-arahants view. Commenting on khammanirodha sutta in the article, Bhante writes the following:

Quote
When he says “Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.”, this refers to kamma in its active/productive form, as the action that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

Here, Bhante again introduces an abhidhamma style re-definition of "new kamma" to fit his thesis. Bhante re-defines new kamma as active/productive kamma that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future, implying that there exists non-active/non-productive kamma that does not lead to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

To clarify the distinction between the Buddha's definition of "new kamma" and Bhante's re-definition, I quote the relevant section of the khammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 ) as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

From this translation, we get a very clear and concise definition of "new kamma" from the Buddha as whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.

Now, let's analyze Bhante's re-definition of "new kamma" to show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

In the nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63 ), the Buddha defines kamma as cetanā, saying "It is volition (cetanā), O bhikkhus, that I call kamma. For having intended, one acts by body, speech, or mind".

In the upādānaparipavatta sutta (SN 22.56 ), the Buddha defines saṅkhārā in panca upādānakhanda as cetanā:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā — rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, are saṅkhārā?

There are these six classes of volition — volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tangibles, volition regarding dhammas. These, O bhikkhus, are called sankhārā.

In the khajjanīya sutta (SN 22.79 ), the Buddha explains why saṅkhārā are called saṅkhārā as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And why, O bhikkhus, do you call them saṅkhārā?
‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti. Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And what is the conditioned that they precondition? 'They precondition conditioned form as form; they  precondition conditioned feeling as feeling; they  precondition conditioned perception as perception; they precondition conditioned saṅkhārā as saṅkhārā; they precondition conditioned consciousness as consciousness'. ‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

From this definition, since saṅkhārā precondition saṅkhārā upādānakkhandhā themselves, we see that saṅkhārā leads to origination of saṅkhārā. But what about the other four saṅkhatā that saṅkhārā preconditions (form, feeling perception and consciousness)?  These also being upādānakkhandhā, we know they are anicca, saṅkhata, paṭicca samuppannaṃ, and since all saṅkhārā are anicca (sabbe saṅkhārā anicca), these four saṅkhatā are also saṅkhārā, thus we can conclude that saṅkhārā lead to origination of saṅkhārā.

But do there exist saṅkhārā that lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā? From aggappasādā sutta (AN 4.34 ), the Buddha declares:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.

“To whatever extent there are dhammas that are conditioned, the noble eightfold path is declared the foremost among them".

We know that the noble eightfold path lead to stilling of all saṅkhārā (sabbasaṅkhārasamatho), and since the noble eightfold path is saṅkhatā, and saṅkhatā are saṅkhārā, thus saṅkhārā also lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

So we can conclude that, saṅkhārā either lead to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

The question may arise as to whether there could be saṅkhārā that neither lead to origination of saṅkhārā nor to the cessation of saṅkhārā. The answer is that there cannot be, as such a saṅkhārā will be asaṅkhata (nibbāna), a self-contradiction. A "black is white" principle.

Thus, if kamma is cetanā and cetanā is a type of saṅkhārā, and saṅkhārā has only two possibilities, either leading to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā, then we must conclude that kamma, being a type of saṅkhārā can only have two possibilities as well, either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma. No other possibilities can exist. So far, so good, but the analysis to reach this conclusion may appear too technical, so let's see if this conclusion that kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma has any backing in the suttas.

From the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 ), we know that any action born of greed, hatred or delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the origination of kamma (kammaṃ kammasamudayāya saṃvattati), whereas any action born of non-greed, non-hatred or non-delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the cessation of kamma (kammaṃ kammanirodhāya saṃvattati).

So from this sutta, we find only two possibilities for kamma as well: kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or leads to the cessation of kamma. A non-active/non-productive kamma that neither leads to origination of kamma nor cessation of kamma will be kammanirodha, a plain self-contradiction, similar to the contradiction that saṅkhārā is asaṅkhata (nibbāna) . A "black is white" principle.

From this analysis, we see that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction. One will need the ability to believe that "black is white" in order to justify the view that arahant's actions by body, speech and mind can be designated as kamma.

I hope that this direct approach has successfully repudiated the "kamma of arahants" view with the following good reasons:
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without contradicting the four noble truths.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without proliferating that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

Let's look at the question Bhante attempted to answer in his article to see if this repudiation can provide the proper answer:

Quote
However, it is not said in AN 3.34 that an Arahant´s deeds cannot be called “actions” (lit.
kamma
) anymore in a conventional sense. Otherwise, how else should one call them? The Theravāda tradition has chosen to use “kiriya” instead.

In light of this repudiation, the answer is to use the very term that the Buddha uses himself to designate the action of arahants, namely kammanirodha.

Why does any attempt to designate the actions of an arahant as kamma lead to self-contradictions, or contradictions with the Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths, or unwarranted papañcā when subjected to scrutiny in light of the saddhamma? Because as the Buddha declares in the alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22 ), "O bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork". With the well proclaimed dhamma being clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork, any interpretations of the well proclaimed Dhamma  based on arisen "other insignificant teachings" (uppannaṃ parappavādaṃ), like the abhidhamma doctrine, is easily exposed as patchwork when subjected to analysis. Such wrong interpretations are bound to lead to inconsistencies in the well proclaimed Dhamma which is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork. 

At the end of the exposition of the kammanirodha sutta, because of its profundity, the Buddha admonishes the bhikkhus to resort to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna, that they may attain arahantship through the full comprehension of old kamma, the abandoning of new kamma, the realization of liberation through the cessation of kamma, thus bringing the noble eightfold path to fulfillment by development.

But why does the Buddha ask the disciples to go through all the trouble of resorting to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna in order to understand kamma, something which is nowadays easily understandable according to the abhidhamma doctrine, with re-defined sutta terms like kiriya, kammavipāka, etc and new abhidhamma terms like paṭisandhi viññāṇa, khandhaparinibbāna, abyākata, etc? If the abhidhamma can attempt to simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to make the teachings understandable enough for commentators to write their commentaries about the arahants as if they are experts on the workings of kamma, then why can't we also simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to our level of understanding so we can write our own commentaries about the arahants? After all, to our naked eyes (if we are fortunate enough to bless our eyes on the sight of an arahant), it looks like the arahant performs actions with body, speech or mind just like us, so why not designate those actions as kamma or kiriya, just like we designate our own actions? Why not simplify the dhamma to fit our understanding based on our own experiences, even if our experiences are not in the range of the arahant's experience? Why keep the arahant a mystery if he eats and walks and talks and feels like us?

Perhaps Venerable Nandaka's simile from the nandakovāda sutta (MN 146 , Venerable Bodhi's translation) can help us to appreciate how the looks of an arahant could be deceiving.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife, without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, and would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds.

I think it is quite fitting to end this repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view with a few verses from the suttas, extolling the arahant as one beyond the reach of language:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Beings percipient of what can be expressed
Become established in what can be expressed.
Not fully understanding what can be expressed,
They come under the yoke of Death.

But having fully understood what can be expressed,
One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’
For that does not exist for him
By which one could even speak of him.
Quote from: samiddhi sutta (SN 1.20 excerpt, Ven. Bodhi's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Saṅkhāya  vatthūni  pamāya  bījaṃ,
sineham  assa  nānuppavecche,
 sa  ve  munī  jātikhayantadassī,
takkaṃ  pahāya  na  upeti  saṅkhaṃ.

"Having  surveyed  the  field  and  measured  the  seed,
He  waters  it  not  for  moisture,
That  sage  in  full  view  of  birth's  end,
Lets  go  of  logic  and  comes  not  within  designation."
Quote from: munisutta  (Snp 1.12 ), adapted from Ven. Nanananda's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

sa sabbadhammesu visenibhūto
yaṃ kiñci diṭṭhaṃ va sutaṃ mutaṃ vā
tameva dassiṃ vivaṭaṃ carantaṃ
kenīdha lokasmi vikappayeyya

Unopposed to all things he has become
whether those seen and heard or those thought about.
The one seeing just that, faring openly,
by what in the world could you make him out?
Quote from: suddhaṭṭhaka sutta (Snp 4.4 excerpt)

* Johann : most styling, approaches... added/edited for more proper accessibility, links added... Start to more relativate addressings with putting word in {} brackes in addition. Commentary can be mostly accessed by adding _att at the end of the url (before #)

Johann (admin-cloth using): some tag-errors corrected
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 10:14:39 PM by Administration »

Tags: