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Talkbox

Like when enter or join, a shrine, another's sphere, or back: good for greating, bye, veneration, short talks, quick help. Some infos on regards .


2024 Mar 24 19:07:11
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ 😌

2024 Mar 24 14:13:29
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 24 06:25:25
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha by following the conducts of the Arahats.

2024 Mar 23 13:11:16
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 21 01:07:56
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 21 00:28:58
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 14:25:49
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 20 12:06:29
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Mar 20 11:24:06
blazer: Good morning everyone  _/\_

2024 Mar 18 21:42:50
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 18 19:43:59
Dhammañāṇa: Mudita, Nyom.

2024 Mar 18 19:36:35
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Undertaking this Sila day at my best.

2024 Mar 18 06:17:10
Dhammañāṇa: Those who undertake the Sila day today: may it be of much metta.

2024 Mar 18 02:16:41
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 17 21:09:31
អរិយវង្ស: 🚬🚬🚬

2024 Mar 17 06:30:53
Dhammañāṇa: Metta-full Sila day, those after it today.

2024 Mar 17 00:02:34
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Mar 11 09:16:04
Dhammañāṇa: Once totally caught by google, AI and machines, every door has been closed for long, long term.

2024 Mar 11 09:14:04
Dhammañāṇa: People at large just wait that another would do his/her duty. Once a slight door to run back, they are gone. By going again just for debts, the wheel of running away turns on.

2024 Mar 10 18:59:10
Dhammañāṇa: Less are those who don't use the higher Dhamma not for defilement-defence, less those who don't throw the basics away and turn back to sensuality "with ease".

2024 Mar 10 06:51:11
Dhammañāṇa: A auspicious new-moon Uposatha for those observing it today.

2024 Mar 09 06:34:39
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed New-moon Uposatha, and birth reminder day of a monarchy of wonders.

2024 Mar 08 21:39:54
Dhammañāṇa: The best way to keep an Ashram silent is to put always duties and Sila high. If wishing it populated, put meditation (eating) on the first place.

2024 Mar 03 21:27:27
Dhammañāṇa: May those undertaking the Sila day today, spend it off in best ways, similar those who go after the days purpose tomorrow.

2024 Feb 25 22:10:33
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 24 06:42:35
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Māgha Pūjā and Full moon Uposatha with much reason for good recallings of goodness.

2024 Feb 24 01:50:55
blazer: Bhante Dhammañāṇa  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 23 06:39:57
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2024 Feb 23 00:19:58
blazer: Taken flu again... at least leg pain has been better managed since many weeks and it's the greatest benefit. Hope Bhante Dhammañāṇa is fine  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 01:06:43
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 18 00:02:37
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 17 18:47:31
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of todays Sila-day.

2024 Feb 17 18:46:59
Dhammañāṇa: Chau Marco, chau...

2024 Feb 16 23:32:59
blazer: Just ended important burocratic and medical stuff. I will check for a flight for Cambodia soon  _/\_

2024 Feb 09 16:08:32
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 12:17:31
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 09 06:42:17
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed New moon Uposatha and last day of the Chinese year of the rabbit, entering the Year of the Naga wisely.

2024 Feb 02 21:17:28
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Feb 02 19:53:28
Dhammañāṇa: May all have the possibility to spend a pleasing rest of Sila day, having given goodness and spend a faultless day.

2024 Jan 26 14:40:25
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 25 10:02:46
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Full moon Uposatha.

2024 Jan 11 06:37:21
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 07 06:31:20
Dhammañāṇa: May many, by skilful deeds,  go for real and lasting independence today

2024 Jan 06 18:00:36
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 16:57:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2024 Jan 04 12:33:08
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila-day, full of metta in thoughts, speech and deeds.

2023 Dec 30 20:21:07
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 27 23:18:38
Dhammañāṇa: May the rest of a bright full moon Uposatha serve many as a blessed day of good deeds.

2023 Dec 26 23:12:17
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 24 16:52:50
Dhammañāṇa: May all who celebrated the birth of their prophet, declaring them his ideas of reaching the Brahma realm, spend peaceful days with family and reflect the goodness near around them, virtuous, generously.

2023 Dec 20 21:36:37
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 20 06:54:09
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by conducting in peacefull manners.

2023 Dec 12 23:45:24
blazer:  _/\_

2023 Dec 12 20:34:26
Dhammañāṇa: choice, yes  :)

2023 Dec 12 13:23:35
blazer: If meaning freedom of choice i understand and agree

2023 Dec 12 12:48:42
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 12 06:13:23
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a great New Moon Uposatha, following the conducts of the Arahats.

2023 Dec 10 12:51:16
Dhammañāṇa: The more freedom of joice, the more troubled in regard of what's right, what's wrong. My person does not say that people at large are prepared for freedom of joice even a little.

2023 Dec 10 10:59:42
blazer: Hope they eat more mindfully than how they talk. It is clear for the gross food, we had more than a talk about this topic. I have put so much effort in mindful eating at the temple, but when i was back i wanted more refined food. I was used to get a choice of more than 10 dishes every day

2023 Dec 10 06:57:44
Dhammañāṇa: A person eating on unskilled thoughts will last defiled, Nyom. Gross food does nothing for purification at all.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:58
blazer: I've had a couple of not nice experiences with monks that were not so pure in my opinion. They surely eat far better than me at temple.

2023 Dec 09 21:41:41
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Dec 09 11:38:36
Dhammañāṇa: Spiritual prostitution, just another way of livelihood.

2023 Dec 05 20:59:38
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 27 14:47:22
អរិយវង្ស:   _/\_ _/\__/\_

2023 Nov 27 05:41:32
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a blessed Anapanasati- Fullmoon and reflect the goodness of Ven Sāriputta as well today.

2023 Nov 20 19:18:13
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 20 18:20:15
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of Sila-day.

2023 Nov 20 02:48:24
Moritz: Hello _/\_ Still possible to join: An-other Journey into the East 2023/24

2023 Nov 18 13:55:11
blazer: Hello everyone  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 12 01:09:01
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom

2023 Nov 12 00:45:21
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 19:42:10
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 09 07:17:02
Dhammañāṇa: សិលា​នាំ​ទៅ​រក​ឯករាជ្យ​នៃ​ជាតិ! សូមឱ្យមនុស្សជាច្រើនប្រារព្ធទិវាឯករាជ្យ(ពី)ជាតិ។

2023 Nov 09 07:06:56
Dhammañāṇa: Sila leads to independence of Jati! May many observe a conductive Independence day.

2023 Nov 07 00:54:02
Dhammañāṇa: Nyoum

2023 Nov 07 00:39:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 15:47:51
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Nov 06 12:21:27
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila observation day today.

2023 Oct 30 15:17:36
Dhammañāṇa: It's common in to give up that what's given to do assist me toward release, common that seeking security in what binds.

2023 Oct 30 13:22:27
អរិយវង្ស: ព្រះអង្គ :) កូណាលុប delta chat ហើយ :D _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 23 18:56:09
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 22 20:36:01
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a pleasing rest of this Sila-day.

2023 Oct 19 20:31:12
Dhammañāṇa: Nyom Sreyneang

2023 Oct 15 07:07:01
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Oct 14 06:53:21
Dhammañāṇa: May all spend a New moon Uposatha based on goodwill for all, find seclusion in the middle of family duties.

2023 Sep 29 07:35:30
blazer:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:23:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 29 07:03:11
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed full moon Uposatha and begin of the ancestor weeks by lived metta and virtue: lived gratitude toward all being, toward one self.

2023 Sep 22 22:07:43
Dhammañāṇa: If no rush turn toward reducing sensuality and make Silas the top of priority, it's to fear that an Atomic conflic will be chosen soon, in the battle of control of the "drugs".

2023 Sep 22 14:59:39
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 22 06:35:51
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Uposatha Observance on this Sila-day, by conducting similar the Arahats.

2023 Sep 16 19:29:27
blazer: Ven. Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 16 19:29:13
blazer: Hello everyone! I've just come back home. I had a long trip and no sleep for more than 30 hours, but currently feel quite good. I've had a good experience, i'm happy. I've found out much inspiration and many ideas about the training and the holy life. I'll recollect and write about them as soon as i've taken some rest. Hope to find you all well and in good health  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 15 05:25:24
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2023 Sep 14 21:09:49
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed rest of New moon Uposatha today (later as no connection before).

2023 Sep 10 01:55:47
អរិយវង្ស:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_?

2023 Sep 09 18:52:54
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 09 18:52:28
Dhammañāṇa: No existence, no 'way of life', can excel the finally journey, just 'busy' in given away all of what ever made one's own. A total remorse-less existence. May many go for it, and see the way toward the deathless, no more worry of past, future and present as well.

2023 Sep 08 06:19:20
Dhammañāṇa: A blessed Sila day, by maintaining goodwill toward all, not only by deeds and speech, but with nine factors, incl. a mind full of metta.

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[Buddha]

Author Topic: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!  (Read 4809 times)

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Offline saddhamma

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2019, 12:04:12 AM »
 _/\_ Dear Bhante Ariyadhammika,

I have been giving Bhante's kamma-of-arahants view {as I perceive it} more thought and would like to offer the following critique and repudiation of the arguments that Bhante has put forth in support for designating the arahant's actions as kamma {at least suggesting that it is fine to use same word}. I hope that this more direct approach will give Bhante a more convincing reason for my suggestion to use the Buddha's own designation of "kammanirodha" to designate the actions of arahants {if this is actually the matters ground}.

I will analyze the arguments that Bhante has used {as I perceived them} to justify the kamma-of-arahants view in order to show {in my approach} the following:

  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without contradicting the four noble truths.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without proliferating that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

May Bhante forgive me if my critique of Bhante's arguments in these analyses comes off as offensive in any way, for that is not my motive.

May Bhante kindly point out any flaws in these analyses that Bhante may find, or provide feedback on any misinterpretations or unjustified deductions from Bhante's arguments, out of compassion.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

* Saddhamma:  In my translations for the suttas used in these analyses, I will leave saṅkhārā untranslated since being a negative, there is no satisfactory English word to capture its full meaning. However, the instantiations of saṅkhārā (abhisaṅkharonti) and the resulting instances (saṅkhata) can be reluctantly rendered in English as "precondition" and "the conditioned" respectively. Dhamma is also left untranslated due to its broad range of meanings. Papañcā is translated as proliferations where needed, otherwise, it is left untranslated. Here, the following definition of precondition is used for translating abhisaṅkharonti:

Precondition: the act of preparing something for a subsequent action

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a contradiction to Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths

To justify the {a} kamma-of-arahants view {if that was the purpose of the essay}, Bhante writes:

Quote
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

Here, Bhante introduces an {lit.} abhhidhamma style re-definition of kammanirodha as rebirth-productive kammanirodha upon the attainment of arahantship, and all-action (by body, speech or mind) kammanirodha at the time of the  Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna. Bhante introduces a term khandhaparinibbāna which I am unable to find
in the suttas. Neither is there any distinction in the suttas between nibbana at the time of arahantship attainment (sandiṭṭhikanibbāna), and parinibbāna (see AN 9.47-49 ). I understand that Bhante is using this term to refer to the arahant's [final] "cessation of the six sense bases of contact", so I will use this phrasing instead, to make it easier for those who are not familiar with abhidhamma or commentarial terms. Let us {me try to} analyze Bhante's {possible} re-definition of kammanirodha from the perspective of the kammanirodha sutta to see if it {my perception of it} is {could be} justified.

To aid analysis, I attempt a more direct rendition of the kammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 ) as follows.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“navapurāṇāni , bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kammanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmīti.

"O bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and do mind it well, I will speak."

katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ?
cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ...pe.... mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is old kamma?
The eye, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen. ...pe.... The mind, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen.
This is called, O bhikkhus, old kamma.

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho?
yo kho, bhikkhave, kāyakammavacīkammamanokammassa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho.

And what, O bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma?
[That] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the cessation of kamma.

katamā ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā?
ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ -- sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, is the path leading to the cessation of kamma?
It is just this noble eightfold path, that is -- right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood , right effort, right mindfulness, right samādhi.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the path leading to the cessation of kamma.

]iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā. yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchāvippaṭisārino ahuvattha. ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

“Thus, O bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever should be done, O bhikkhus, by a teacher for his disciples, desiring their welfare, having pity for them, that has been done for you by me, out of compassion. These are the feet of trees, O bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Cultivate jhāna, O bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

The kammanirodha sutta is a formulation of the four noble truths  in terms of kamma instead of dukkha as expressed in the standard formulation.

To show that the kamma formulation is equivalent to the standard formulation, it is shown that each noble truth in the standard formulation is equivalent to the corresponding noble truth in the kamma formulation as follows:

The standard formulation identifies the five holding aggregates as suffering in brief (saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā), indicating that the six sense bases (old kamma) must be identified as suffering in the kamma formulation. Let's see if that is the case. From the mahāhatthipadopama sutta (MN 28 ), we know that each sense base of contact arises with the five holding aggregates. Thus, the arising of the sense bases of contact is the arising of suffering. So we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the first noble truth.

The second noble truth in the standard formulation defines craving as the origination of suffering, whereas the kamma formulation defines "whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind" (new kamma) as the origination of suffering. This implies that the arising of present bodily, verbal or mental action is the arising of craving. This is consistent with the Buddha's designation of kamma in the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 [112]) as either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma, which is applicable only to those who have not destroyed craving. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the second noble truth.

The third noble truth in the standard formulation defines the destruction of craving as the cessation of suffering, whereas the third noble truth in the kamma formulation defines "[that] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action" (kammanirodha) as the cessation of suffering. In the suttas, we find that the destruction of kamma is synonymous with the destruction of craving. For example, here is a verse from the pārāyanavagga (Snp 5.0 ) by a deva extolling the Buddha's destruction of all kamma.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“so hi brāhmaṇa sambuddho, sabbadhammāna pāragū.
sabbābhiññābalappatto, sabbadhammesu cakkhumā.
sabbakammakkhayaṃ patto, vimutto upadhikkhaye.

He is a Sambuddha, brahmin, a transcender of all dhammas,
Having attained all higher knowledges and powers, endowed with eye in all dhammas,
he has attained to the destruction of all kamma, liberated through the destruction of all appropriations.

And here is a verse where the Buddha himself extolls the arahant's abandonment of all kamma in the mahaviyuha sutta (Snp 4.13 ).

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

sīlabbataṃ vāpi pahāya sabbaṃ
kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṃ
suddhī asuddhī ti apatthayāno
virato care santimanuggahāya

Having abandoned all virtue and observances
and kamma, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.

So from these examples, the destruction of craving is the destruction of action. Thus, we see an agreement between the standard formulation and kamma formulation of the third noble truth.

The agreement between the standard formulation and the kamma formulation for the forth noble truth is self-evident and need no further elaboration.

Thus, the kammanirodha sutta can be summarize as follows:

  • The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind bases of contact (old kamma) is suffering. It must be fully comprehended.
  • Whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind (new kamma) is the origination of suffering. It must be abandoned.
  • Attainment of liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action (kammanirodha) is the cessation of suffering. It must be realized.
  • Just this noble eightfold path is the path leading to the cessation of suffering (kamma). It must be cultivated.

So we see that the kammanorodha sutta is a deep exposition of the four noble truths.

If we go by Bhante's re-definition of kammanirodha that the arahant only realizes half of kammanirodha upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact, we have to conclude, for the sake of consistency with the four noble truths, that the arahant only realizes half of the cessation of suffering upon attaining arahantship and the other half at the time of the arahant's [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact. But this is a grave contradiction of the four noble truths as taught by the Buddha. Thus, we see that designating the arahant's action as kamma by re-defining kammanirodha contradicts the Buddha's teaching of the four noble truths.

The kammanirodha sutta, along with other suttas that are quoted at the beginning of the kamma-of-arahants article, namely the nidāna sutta (AN 3.34 ), mahānidāna sutta (DN 15 ), and paṭhamasikkhāpada sutta (AN 4.235 ), are all very deep suttas where the Buddha illucidates the finer aspects of the supramundane right view of kamma and paṭicca samuppāda. They are deep in meaning (gambhīratthā), world transcending (lokuttara), connected with emptiness (suññatapaṭisaṃyuttā). They belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to disenchantment (nibbidā), to fading away (virāga), to cessation (nirodha), to nibbāna.

The faults I see with the article is that it reduces these deep expositions on the dhamma dealing with supramundane right view which has the deathless as its destination, to mundane right view which only swells the cemeteries. The abhidhamma style oversimplification of these expositions brings the article to an anticlimax when the following question is posed:

Quote
At this point it may also be relevant to investigate who the recipient of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is. The doer himself, or others? The answer is found in the following stock-phrases in the discourses:  “I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.” (AN 10.48 )

“Beings are owners of their actions, student, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes beings as inferior and superior.” (MN 135 )

Perhaps the sutta translations used in the article, some of which betray a bias towards traditional commentaries, contributed to the oversimplification of these deep suttas. For example, in the translation of kammanirodha sutta used in the article, a "doer" is arbitrarily inserted into the phrasing where a "doer" is not necessary in the context of the kammanirodha sutta. Thus, the right phrasing of the dhamma is lost, leading to the wrong interpretations and the posing of mundane questions that does not fit the context. The Buddha's exposition of the four noble truths in the kammanirodha sutta is in the context of supramundane (lokuttara) right view, where the four noble truths are phrased in terms of the six sense bases, bodily, verbal and mental actions, liberation attainment through cessation of bodily, verbal and mental action, and path. There need not be any reference to a "doer" in this formulation. As the Buddha makes clear in the moḷiyaphagguna sutta (SN 12.12 ) and acelakassapa sutta (SN 12.17 ), such a question as to whether the doer himself or others are the recipients of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is not a valid question in this context. Thus, the answer the article offers is not a valid answer and sides with the eternalists view, misrepresenting the Buddha's supramundane right view teachings in this context. In this context, the correct question to pose is, "with what as condition does the results of kamma come to be?" And the proper answer is "with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, holding;  with holding as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, physical suffering, mental suffering and despair. Such is the origination of this whole mass of suffering".

After this anticlimax, the article continues to diverge from the deep suttas it quotes at the beginning, straying further and further from the well proclaimed Dhamma into abhidhamma doctrine, before arriving at the conclusion that the actions of arahants can be designated as kamma or kiriya. As the following quotes from the suttas will show, Bhante's speculations about the arahant at the time of his or her [final] cessation of the six sense bases of contact to justify this conclusion is [might be] unwarranted papañcā.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants" view by way of exposing unwarranted papañcā
Let's subject the following statement by Bhante to further scrutiny in light of the suttas to show that it is unwarranted papañcā.

Quote
Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.

From the sekha sutta (SN 48.53 ), the Buddha explains one beyond training as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, asekho bhikkhucha indriyāni pajānāti.
‘Cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ—’imāni kho cha indriyāni sabbena sabbaṃsabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhissanti, aññāni ca cha indriyāni na kuhiñci kismiñciuppajjissantī’ti pajānāti.
Ayampi kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃpariyāyaṃ āgamma asekho bhikkhuasekhabhūmiyaṃ ṭhito ‘asekhosmī’ti pajānātī”ti.

Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is one beyond training wisely understands the six faculties—the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty, the mind faculty. He wisely understands: ‘These six faculties will cease completely and totally without remainder, and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in any way.’ This too is a method by means of which a bhikkhu who is beyond training, standing on the plane of one beyond training, wisely understands: ‘I am one beyond training.’”

So we see that the time of the arahant's exhaustion of life, the breakup of the body, is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact. The kotthita sutta (AN 4.173 ) makes it clear that any speculations with reference to the cessation of the six sense bases of contact is unwarranted papañcā.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthi ca natthi ca aññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā nevatthi no natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti.

"Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is something else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is both something else and nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is neither something else nor nothing else,' one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated."

]yāvatā, āvuso, channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati tāvatā papañcassa gati; yāvatā papañcassa gati tāvatā channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati. channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.

Friend, as far as the range of the six bases of contact extends, just so far extends the range of papañcā. As far as the range of papañcā extends, just so far extends the range of the six bases for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact there is the cessation of papañcā, the subsiding of papañcā."

From this sutta, we see that even the very notion that the arahant has some all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind (a something else) left to be abandoned at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, or half a kammanirodha to be attained at the time of the [final] cessation of the six bases of contact, is a proliferation of that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.

Given the qualities of the well proclaimed Dhamma as: 'The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One (svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo), directly visible [in this very life] (sandiṭṭhiko), not involving time (akāliko), [inviting one to] come and see (ehipassiko), leading onwards (opanāyiko), to be personally experienced by the wise (paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī), the arahant need not wait for the breakup of the body before attaining the cessation of all action. So we see that there is no justification for re-defining the Buddha's definition of kammanirodha to fit the kamma-of-arahant thesis.

Repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view by way of exposing a self-contradiction

The following analysis will show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

Now let's analyze Bhante's main argument for justifying the kamma-of-arahants view. Commenting on khammanirodha sutta in the article, Bhante writes the following:

Quote
When he says “Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.”, this refers to kamma in its active/productive form, as the action that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

Here, Bhante again introduces an abhidhamma style re-definition of "new kamma" to fit his thesis. Bhante re-defines new kamma as active/productive kamma that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future, implying that there exists non-active/non-productive kamma that does not lead to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.

To clarify the distinction between the Buddha's definition of "new kamma" and Bhante's re-definition, I quote the relevant section of the khammanirodha sutta (SN 35.146 ) as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.

And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.

From this translation, we get a very clear and concise definition of "new kamma" from the Buddha as whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.

Now, let's analyze Bhante's re-definition of "new kamma" to show that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

In the nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63 ), the Buddha defines kamma as cetanā, saying "It is volition (cetanā), O bhikkhus, that I call kamma. For having intended, one acts by body, speech, or mind".

In the upādānaparipavatta sutta (SN 22.56 ), the Buddha defines saṅkhārā in panca upādānakhanda as cetanā:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā — rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

“And what, O bhikkhus, are saṅkhārā?

There are these six classes of volition — volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tangibles, volition regarding dhammas. These, O bhikkhus, are called sankhārā.

In the khajjanīya sutta (SN 22.79 ), the Buddha explains why saṅkhārā are called saṅkhārā as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And why, O bhikkhus, do you call them saṅkhārā?
‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti. Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.

And what is the conditioned that they precondition? 'They precondition conditioned form as form; they  precondition conditioned feeling as feeling; they  precondition conditioned perception as perception; they precondition conditioned saṅkhārā as saṅkhārā; they precondition conditioned consciousness as consciousness'. ‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.

From this definition, since saṅkhārā precondition saṅkhārā upādānakkhandhā themselves, we see that saṅkhārā leads to origination of saṅkhārā. But what about the other four saṅkhatā that saṅkhārā preconditions (form, feeling perception and consciousness)?  These also being upādānakkhandhā, we know they are anicca, saṅkhata, paṭicca samuppannaṃ, and since all saṅkhārā are anicca (sabbe saṅkhārā anicca), these four saṅkhatā are also saṅkhārā, thus we can conclude that saṅkhārā lead to origination of saṅkhārā.

But do there exist saṅkhārā that lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā? From aggappasādā sutta (AN 4.34 ), the Buddha declares:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.

“To whatever extent there are dhammas that are conditioned, the noble eightfold path is declared the foremost among them".

We know that the noble eightfold path lead to stilling of all saṅkhārā (sabbasaṅkhārasamatho), and since the noble eightfold path is saṅkhatā, and saṅkhatā are saṅkhārā, thus saṅkhārā also lead to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

So we can conclude that, saṅkhārā either lead to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā.

The question may arise as to whether there could be saṅkhārā that neither lead to origination of saṅkhārā nor to the cessation of saṅkhārā. The answer is that there cannot be, as such a saṅkhārā will be asaṅkhata (nibbāna), a self-contradiction. A "black is white" principle.

Thus, if kamma is cetanā and cetanā is a type of saṅkhārā, and saṅkhārā has only two possibilities, either leading to the origination of saṅkhārā or to the cessation of saṅkhārā, then we must conclude that kamma, being a type of saṅkhārā can only have two possibilities as well, either leading to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma. No other possibilities can exist. So far, so good, but the analysis to reach this conclusion may appear too technical, so let's see if this conclusion that kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or to the cessation of kamma has any backing in the suttas.

From the paṭhamanidāna sutta (AN 3.111 ), we know that any action born of greed, hatred or delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the origination of kamma (kammaṃ kammasamudayāya saṃvattati), whereas any action born of non-greed, non-hatred or non-delusion is designated as kamma that leads to the cessation of kamma (kammaṃ kammanirodhāya saṃvattati).

So from this sutta, we find only two possibilities for kamma as well: kamma either leads to the origination of kamma or leads to the cessation of kamma. A non-active/non-productive kamma that neither leads to origination of kamma nor cessation of kamma will be kammanirodha, a plain self-contradiction, similar to the contradiction that saṅkhārā is asaṅkhata (nibbāna) . A "black is white" principle.

From this analysis, we see that the arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction. One will need the ability to believe that "black is white" in order to justify the view that arahant's actions by body, speech and mind can be designated as kamma.

I hope that this direct approach has successfully repudiated the "kamma of arahants" view with the following good reasons:
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without contradicting the four noble truths.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without proliferating that which ought not be proliferated, an unwarranted papañcā.
  • The arahant's actions cannot be designated as kamma without encountering a self-contradiction.

Let's look at the question Bhante attempted to answer in his article to see if this repudiation can provide the proper answer:

Quote
However, it is not said in AN 3.34 that an Arahant´s deeds cannot be called “actions” (lit.
kamma
) anymore in a conventional sense. Otherwise, how else should one call them? The Theravāda tradition has chosen to use “kiriya” instead.

In light of this repudiation, the answer is to use the very term that the Buddha uses himself to designate the action of arahants, namely kammanirodha.

Why does any attempt to designate the actions of an arahant as kamma lead to self-contradictions, or contradictions with the Buddha's teachings of the four noble truths, or unwarranted papañcā when subjected to scrutiny in light of the saddhamma? Because as the Buddha declares in the alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22 ), "O bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork". With the well proclaimed dhamma being clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork, any interpretations of the well proclaimed Dhamma  based on arisen "other insignificant teachings" (uppannaṃ parappavādaṃ), like the abhidhamma doctrine, is easily exposed as patchwork when subjected to analysis. Such wrong interpretations are bound to lead to inconsistencies in the well proclaimed Dhamma which is clear, open, [self-] evident, and free of patchwork. 

At the end of the exposition of the kammanirodha sutta, because of its profundity, the Buddha admonishes the bhikkhus to resort to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna, that they may attain arahantship through the full comprehension of old kamma, the abandoning of new kamma, the realization of liberation through the cessation of kamma, thus bringing the noble eightfold path to fulfillment by development.

But why does the Buddha ask the disciples to go through all the trouble of resorting to root of trees and empty huts to cultivate jhāna in order to understand kamma, something which is nowadays easily understandable according to the abhidhamma doctrine, with re-defined sutta terms like kiriya, kammavipāka, etc and new abhidhamma terms like paṭisandhi viññāṇa, khandhaparinibbāna, abyākata, etc? If the abhidhamma can attempt to simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to make the teachings understandable enough for commentators to write their commentaries about the arahants as if they are experts on the workings of kamma, then why can't we also simplify the Buddha's atakkāvacara teachings to our level of understanding so we can write our own commentaries about the arahants? After all, to our naked eyes (if we are fortunate enough to bless our eyes on the sight of an arahant), it looks like the arahant performs actions with body, speech or mind just like us, so why not designate those actions as kamma or kiriya, just like we designate our own actions? Why not simplify the dhamma to fit our understanding based on our own experiences, even if our experiences are not in the range of the arahant's experience? Why keep the arahant a mystery if he eats and walks and talks and feels like us?

Perhaps Venerable Nandaka's simile from the nandakovāda sutta (MN 146 , Venerable Bodhi's translation) can help us to appreciate how the looks of an arahant could be deceiving.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife, without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, and would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds.

I think it is quite fitting to end this repudiation of the kamma-of-arahants view with a few verses from the suttas, extolling the arahant as one beyond the reach of language:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Beings percipient of what can be expressed
Become established in what can be expressed.
Not fully understanding what can be expressed,
They come under the yoke of Death.

But having fully understood what can be expressed,
One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’
For that does not exist for him
By which one could even speak of him.
Quote from: samiddhi sutta (SN 1.20 excerpt, Ven. Bodhi's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Saṅkhāya  vatthūni  pamāya  bījaṃ,
sineham  assa  nānuppavecche,
 sa  ve  munī  jātikhayantadassī,
takkaṃ  pahāya  na  upeti  saṅkhaṃ.

"Having  surveyed  the  field  and  measured  the  seed,
He  waters  it  not  for  moisture,
That  sage  in  full  view  of  birth's  end,
Lets  go  of  logic  and  comes  not  within  designation."
Quote from: munisutta  (Snp 1.12 ), adapted from Ven. Nanananda's translation

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

sa sabbadhammesu visenibhūto
yaṃ kiñci diṭṭhaṃ va sutaṃ mutaṃ vā
tameva dassiṃ vivaṭaṃ carantaṃ
kenīdha lokasmi vikappayeyya

Unopposed to all things he has become
whether those seen and heard or those thought about.
The one seeing just that, faring openly,
by what in the world could you make him out?
Quote from: suddhaṭṭhaka sutta (Snp 4.4 excerpt)

* Johann : most styling, approaches... added/edited for more proper accessibility, links added... Start to more relativate addressings with putting word in {} brackes in addition. Commentary can be mostly accessed by adding _att at the end of the url (before #)

Johann (admin-cloth using): some tag-errors corrected
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 10:14:39 PM by Administration »

Offline Dhammañāṇa

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Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2019, 12:12:59 PM »
* Johann :  Sadhu Bhante, Nyom Ebo, for compassion and uphold patient effort. My person still weak, has just started to make all a little more proper accessable. Maybe Nyom likes to continue, if inspired, and also to get given sources better known.
Just two things, my person thought possible good to always consider: As soon as having Arahat as object, neither is, not is not, actually fails and both turnings, up, down, are "Objectivication". Second, this being underlying reason as well, there is actually no real different between kusala and kamma for ending of kamma, but "just" the underlying "objectivity", say "ārammaṇa" which counts also for the two "different" right views. Maybe Thunderheads gives different access. Please keep also in mind that an No-sekha-asekha is still able to act grave faulty based on his perceptions, often in war with windwills tracing them as monsters. In same way an non-sekha-asekha can easy hit his mother, father.... still very traumaticed.

Looking foreward on reading pleasing and especially releasing giving intos here. Mudita.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Dhammañāṇa

  • Bhikkhu
  • Very Engaged Member
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  • Sadhu! or +417/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • (Samana Johann)
  • Date of ordination/Datum der Ordination.: 20140527 Upasampadā 20240110
Re: 'The Kamma of Arahants'!!
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2022, 06:50:14 AM »
It's worthy to read the whole, Nyom {removed name}1 and also good to let Arahats tell of 'their' range. Over all it's about the different in deeds.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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