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2020 Feb 08 22:38:59
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2020 Feb 08 17:21:10
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2020 Feb 08 06:18:20
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2020 Feb 06 20:30:12
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2020 Feb 04 14:45:08
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2020 Jan 30 02:39:50
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2020 Jan 29 20:10:42
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2020 Jan 26 12:06:21
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2020 Jan 24 09:58:40
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2020 Jan 24 08:29:47
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2020 Jan 24 08:28:40
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2020 Jan 23 21:53:22
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2020 Jan 23 21:25:30
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2020 Jan 23 11:48:02
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2020 Jan 22 09:39:03
Danilo: did Bhante's health get better?

2020 Jan 22 09:37:11
Danilo: Bhante Johann _/\_

2020 Jan 21 19:20:53
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2020 Jan 21 19:01:10
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2020 Jan 21 13:09:02
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2020 Jan 20 19:30:27
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2020 Jan 19 20:32:04
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2020 Jan 19 20:29:34
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Johann: some moved to topic here

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2020 Jan 18 08:14:54
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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2020 Jan 17 13:39:36
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2020 Jan 17 13:39:19
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2020 Jan 17 10:29:19
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2020 Jan 17 08:49:11
Chanroth: ធ្វើអាស្រមហើយចេញពីរសេចក្ដីល្អ ធ្វើអ្វីដើម្បីខ្លួល្អជាង

2020 Jan 17 08:45:08
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2020 Jan 17 08:33:16
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 17 06:56:27
Johann: A blessed and fruitful Uposatha, those observing it today.

2020 Jan 17 06:45:45
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Jan 17 06:44:49
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 16 23:01:31
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2020 Jan 15 14:16:00
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 15 11:15:29
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 15 11:12:01
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2020 Jan 15 10:24:02
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2020 Jan 15 10:21:50
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2020 Jan 12 22:22:36
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2020 Jan 12 22:04:02
Moritz: _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:34:30
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2020 Jan 12 21:31:02
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2020 Jan 12 21:27:15
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Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:23:59
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Author Topic: The five tonics ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥ (pañcabhesajja) and milky (K{h}ir{iy}a) issue  (Read 1492 times)

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Offline Johann

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Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Medical plants, allowed medicine-Pflanzenheilmittel, erlaubte Medizin [bhesajja] , hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
[Original post:]


pañcabhesajja
Probably because from milk deriving products have been (and are still) merely unknown in Cambodia as well Thailand (aside of milk and condense milk in cans, those are well known), the Khmer Tipitaka translates ទឹកដោះរាវ១ ទឹកដោះខាប់១ ប្រេង១ ទឹកឃ្មុំ១ ស្ករអំពៅ១, raw milk, condense milk, oil, honey, sugar can "instead" of ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey; sugar/molasses; sappi navanītaṁ telaṁmadhuṁ phāṇitaṁ
Quote from: PTS
1) Sappi (p. 680) Sappi Sappi (nt.) [Vedic sarpis] clarified butter, ghee D i.9, 141, 201; A i.278; A ii.95, 207 (˚tela); iii.219; iv.103; Sn 295 (˚tela). Dhs 646; J i.184; ii.43; iv.223 (˚tela); Vin i.58, etc. -- ˚maṇḍa [cp. BSk. sarpimaṇḍa Divy 3 etc.] the scum, froth, cream of clarified butter, the best of ghee D i.201; A ii.95; VvA 172; Pug 70; its tayo guṇā Miln 322.

 1) Navanīta (p. 348) Navanīta Navanīta (nt.) & nonīta [cp. Ved. navanīta] fresh butter Vin i.244 (cp. gorasa); D i.201; M iii.141; Pv iii.55 (nonīta); Pug 69, 70; Miln 41, Dhs 646, 740; DhA i.417; PvA 199.

1) Tela (p. 307) Tela Tela (nt.) [from tila] sesamum -- oil (prepared from tila seeds), oil in general (tela=tilatelādika DA i.93): used for drinking, anointing & burning purposes Vin i.205, 220, 245, etc.; A i.209, 278 (sappi vā t. vā); ii.122≈(tattena pi telena osiñcante; punishment of pouring over with boiling oil); J i.293; ii.104; Pv iv.148 (tiṇena telaŋ pi na tvaŋ adāsi: frequent as gift to mendicants)

1) Madhu (p. 519) Madhu Madhu [cp. Vedic madhu, Gr. me/qu wine, Lith. medùs honey, midùs wine, Ohg. metu=Ger. met wine. Most likely to root *med to be full of juice: see under madati] honey J i.157 sq.; iv.117; Dh 69 (madhū vā read as madhuvā)

1) Phāṇita (p. 478) Phāṇita Phāṇita (nt.) [cp. Epic Sk. phāṇita] 1. juice of the sugar cane, raw sugar, molasses (ucchu -- rasaŋ gahetvā kataphāṇitaŋ VvA 180) Vin ii.177; D i.141; Vv 3525; 404; J i.33, 120, 227; Miln 107; DhA ii.57. phāṇitassa puṭaŋ a basket of sugar S i.175;

Also the Khmer Saddanukrama translates it as "clear water from breast" and then, as thought, counts the different cans, bottles... to describe it (as thought). Those things are ever unknown in SEAsia, not using/producing milk at all traditionally.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:26:34 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Maybe Bhante Ariyadhammika likes to share of what he has heard or learned here, out of compassion.

Going further, it seems that paya (PTS: Paya (nt.) [Ved. payas, nt, of pī] milk, juice J i.204; vi.572.) might be used as milk. Yet payopānaṃ is one of the 8 additional juices (incl. some fruits, rice cook water...).

My person wonders about the known similies of the Buddha making Ghee, or getting milk from turning horns, where one could see the use of words denoting what. Bhumija Sutta , for example.

My person thinks it's an importand topic because many different branches use things from Vinaya to blame or discredited each other not only for good but also for own gain, and "fools" take such Vinaya issues outwardly as measures.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:59:22 AM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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The Bhumija Sutta uses Khīra (PTS: 1) Khīra (p. 237) Khīra Khīra (nt.) [Sk. kṣīra] milk, milky fluid, milky juice Vin i.243; ii.301; M i.343 sq.=A ii.207=Pug 56; A ii.95 (in simile with dadhi, navanīta, sappi, sappi -- maṇḍa)= D i.201; DhA i.98; enumd with dadhi, etc., as one constituent of material food (kabalinkāro ähāro) at Dhs 646=740=875; -- J iv.138 (mātu kh˚); 140; Dh 71=Nett 161; Miln 41; PvA 198 (=sneha, milky juice); VvA 75; DhA i.98 (nirudaka kh˚, milk without water). -- duddha -- khīra one who has milked Sn 18.)

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Seyyathāpi bhūmija, puriso khīratthiko khīragavesī khīrapariyesanaṃ caramāno gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyya, āsañcepi karitvā gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Anāsañcepi karitvā vālikaṃ doṇiyā ākiritvā udakena paripphosakaṃ paripphosakaṃ pīḷeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā vālikaṃ doṇiyā ākiritvā udakena paripphosakaṃ paripphosakaṃ pīḷeyya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Nevāsaṃ nānāsañcepi karitvā gāviṃ taruṇavacchaṃ visāṇato āviñjeyaya, abhabbo khīrassa adhigamāya. Taṃ kissa hetu: ayoni hesā bhūmija, khīrassa adhigamāya. Evameva kho bhūmija, ye hi keci samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā micchādiṭṭhino micchāsaṅkappā micchāvācā micchākammantā micchāājīvā micchāvāyāmā micchāsatī micchāsamādhino te āsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti. Abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Āsañca anāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Nevāsaṃ nānāsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya. Taṃ kissa hetu: ayoni hesā1 bhūmija, phalassa adhigamāya.

”Suppose a man in need of milk, looking for milk, wandering in search of milk, would twist the horn of a newly-calved cow. If he were to twist the horn of a newly-calved cow even when having made a wish [for results]… having made no wish… both having made a wish and having made no wish… neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.

“In the same way, any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]… having made no wish… both having made a wish and having made no wish… neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.


And condense milk seems to be denoted with nirudaka Khīra, niro (without), daka (water), Khīra (milk).
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Offline Johann

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From milk to Ghee from the Poṭṭhapādasuttaṃ (DN9)

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[440] ‘‘Seyyathāpi, citta, gavā khīraṃ, khīramhā dadhi, dadhimhā navanītaṃ, navanītamhā sappi, sappimhā sappimaṇḍo. Yasmiṃ samaye khīraṃ hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye dadhīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na navanītanti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappimaṇḍoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; khīraṃ tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Yasmiṃ samaye dadhi hoti…pe… navanītaṃ hoti… sappi hoti… sappimaṇḍo hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye khīranti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na dadhīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na navanītanti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na sappīti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; sappimaṇḍo tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Evameva kho, citta, yasmiṃ samaye oḷāriko attapaṭilābho hoti…pe… yasmiṃ, citta, samaye manomayo attapaṭilābho hoti…pe… yasmiṃ, citta, samaye arūpo attapaṭilābho hoti, neva tasmiṃ samaye oḷāriko attapaṭilābhoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati, na manomayo attapaṭilābhoti saṅkhaṃ gacchati; arūpo attapaṭilābho tveva tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhaṃ gacchati. Imā kho citta, lokasamaññā lokaniruttiyo lokavohārā lokapaññattiyo , yāhi tathāgato voharati aparāmasa’’nti.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Just as when milk comes from a cow, curds from milk, butter from curds, ghee from butter, and the skimmings of ghee from ghee. When there is milk, it's not classified as curds, butter, ghee, or skimmings of ghee. It's classified just as milk. When there are curds... When there is butter... When there is ghee... When there are the skimmings of ghee, they're not classified as milk, curds, butter, or ghee. They're classified just as the skimmings of ghee.

khīraṃ = milk from the giver
dadhi = curds (cheese)
navanītaṃ = butter
sappi = ghee

So accourding this simile it seems that milk isn't meant in the set of 5 tonics (as the common mahanikaya suggests and Dhammayut and Mahavihara-Mahanikaya oppose). Which is reasonable since milk is actually a "full-food".

Yet still there is the issue of payopānaṃ. let's see if similes can be found. paya meaning also "first".

Tuvaṭṭakasuttaniddeso, kn/man, seems to have even an explaining on all point, yet it would "waste" a precious time if trying to translate without skills, given means:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[159]

Annānamatho pānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ;

Laddhāna sannidhiṃ kayirā, na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno.

Annānamathopānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānanti. Annānanti odano kummāso sattu maccho maṃsaṃ. Pānānanti aṭṭha pānāni – ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ, mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ , muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ. Aparānipi aṭṭha pānāni – kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ, payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ. Khādanīyānanti piṭṭhakhajjakaṃ, pūvakhajjakaṃ, mūlakhajjakaṃ, tacakhajjakaṃ, pattakhajjakaṃ, pupphakhajjakaṃ, phalakhajjakaṃ. Vatthānanti cha cīvarāni – khomaṃ, kappāsikaṃ, koseyyaṃ, kambalaṃ, sāṇaṃ, bhaṅganti – annānamatho pānānaṃ khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ.

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirāti. Laddhāti laddhā labhitvā adhigantvā vinditvā paṭilabhitvā na kuhanāya, na lapanāya, na nemittikatāya, na nippesikatāya, na lābhena lābhaṃ nijigīsanatāya nijigiṃsanatāya (sī. syā.), na kaṭṭhadānena, na veḷudānena, na pattadānena, na pupphadānena, na phaladānena, na sinānadānena, na cuṇṇadānena, na mattikādānena, na dantakaṭṭhadānena, na mukhodakadānena, na cāṭukamyatāya, na muggasūpyatāya na muggasuppatāya (sī.), na muggasūpatāya (syā.), na pāribhaṭayayatāya, na pīṭhamaddikatāya piṭṭhimaṃsikatāya (sī.), piṭṭhimaddikatāya (ka.), na vatthuvijjāya, na tiracchānavijjāya, na aṅgavijjāya, na nakkhattavijjāya, na dūtagamanena, na pahiṇagamanena, na jaṅghapesaniyena, na vejjakammena, na navakammena, na piṇḍapaṭipiṇḍakena, na dānānuppadānena dhammena samena laddhā labhitvā adhigantvā vinditvā paṭilabhitvāti – laddhā. Na sannidhiṃ kayirāti annasannidhiṃ pānasannidhiṃ vatthasannidhiṃ yānasannidhiṃ sayanasannidhiṃ gandhasannidhiṃ āmisasannidhiṃ na kareyya na janeyya na sañjaneyya na nibbatteyya nābhinibbatteyyāti – laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā.

Na ca parittase tāni alabhamānoti. Annaṃ vā na labhāmi , pānaṃ vā na labhāmi, vatthaṃ vā na labhāmi, kulaṃ vā na labhāmi, gaṇaṃ vā na labhāmi, āvāsaṃ vā na labhāmi, lābhaṃ vā na labhāmi, yasaṃ vā na labhāmi, pasaṃsaṃ vā na labhāmi, sukhaṃ vā na labhāmi, cīvaraṃ vā na labhāmi, piṇḍapātaṃ vā na labhāmi, senāsanaṃ vā na labhāmi, gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ vā na labhāmi, gilānupaṭṭhākaṃ vā na labhāmi, ‘‘appaññātomhī’’ti na taseyya na uttaseyya na parittaseyya na bhāyeyya na santāsaṃ āpajjeyya , abhīrū assa achambhī anutrāsī apalāyī, pahīnabhayabheravo vigatalomahaṃso vihareyyāti – na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno.

Tenāha bhagavā –

‘‘Annānamatho pānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ;

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā, na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno’’ti.

Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā..., No permission to store trade(?), nor (a matter when not getting ?)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 01:08:14 PM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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What does Bhante Ariyadhammika think (if having the compassion to answer when adressed so directly)? Following the set of 8 juices, found in the Mahavagga, it seems as if milk-drinks are allowed, now my person guesses that the Commentary by Ven. Sariputta, Mahaniddesa (above) might give more clearancy. Does Bhante accept such as Mahaniddesa?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 12:30:52 PM by Johann »
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In 6. Surusuruvaggo in the Sekhiyakaṇḍaṃ "milk-drinks/juice" and milk appear together:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Tena samayena buddho bhagavā kosambiyaṃ viharati ghositārāme. Tena kho pana samayena aññatarena brāhmaṇena saṅghassa payopānaṃ paṭiyattaṃ hoti. Bhikkhū surusurukārakaṃ khīraṃ pivanti.

As far as understanding: ...at that occassion a certain Brahman gave "milk-products/juice". The bhikkhus smacked and ate noisily while drinking milk.

So it seems, from this, that ilk is incl. in the "category" payopānaṃ, at least in juice form.

That, if concluding here, in most seriouse way, would mean that milk (as raw products, not butter, not ghee) would fall under the group of the eight juices, yet not explicit mentioned as the "for seven days store-able tonics".

This means, as far as seeing, that consume of certain (at least liquidity) milk products are allowed to be consumed on the very day (not stored). Does my persons short investigation here fits to more skilled investigations of the Venerables? Bhante Ariyadhammika ?

That will/would certain "shock" many who had blamed other for consuming milk in the afternoon.

My person has to confess that he might had adopted an incorrect "this is right, all else is wrong view" for longer as well, rebuking many when drinking milk in the afternoon (of course they thought it's one of the five tonics, but only in that far, seemingly wrong, not to speak of storing of low milk-drinks).

Please, if that seems right for all: May the Bhikkhus inform each other and possible ask for pardon. Maybe Bhante Khemakumara or Nyom Cheav Villa could also adress Bhante Indaññāno  and it would be of course a great gift if also Ven. Grandfather Varado helps the community with his prove and investigation. Maybe Lok Ta even feels inspired to illustrate the words eloquent in the IGPT online.

Certain Burmese, Mahavihara, Dhammayut oders might have wrongly rebuked others for longer time, made it an issue for not doing the Uposatha together.

Of course my person does not know of what Commentaries may say, and as told, SEAsian (Thai, Khmer, Lao, Burma?) can not so be used, as people aren't familar with milk and it's products at all (Sri Lankan may have had milk culture).

May the topic help many toward a more refined accumulation of sense of self and even to get ride of on-group-holding-group-accumulating-view till even end off all fine kinds of mānaṃ.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 04:08:43 PM by Johann »
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To make the different more clear for Venerables of the Khmer land:

ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥

sappi សប្បិ, Ghee , fat, oil from Butter (navanīta)
navanīta នវនីត, បឺរ(ខ្លាញ្ញទឹកដោះគោ), butter (maybe incl. very fat chees)
tela តេល, ប្រេង ឆា ពី សណ្ដែក ឬ ល្ង (sesame, corn) oil
madhu មធុ, ទឹកឃ្មុំ, honey
phāṇita ផាណិត, ស្ករ, sugar (general)

Now to understand the process from khīra, ខីរ ទឹកដោះ (water from breast) to សប្បិ:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៤៤០] ‘‘សេយ្យថាបិ, ចិត្ត, គវា ខីរំ, ខីរម្ហា ទធិ, ទធិម្ហា នវនីតំ, នវនីតម្ហា សប្បិ, សប្បិម្ហា សប្បិមណ្ឌោ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរំ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បិមណ្ឌោតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; ខីរំ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ទធិ ហោតិ…បេ.… នវនីតំ ហោតិ… សប្បិ ហោតិ… សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ ឯវមេវ ខោ, ចិត្ត, យស្មិំ សមយេ ឱឡារិកោ អត្តបដិលាភោ ហោតិ…បេ.…

khīra ខីរ = ទឹកដោះ milk from the giver
dadhi ទធិ = ទឹកដោះ ទ្បើងឬក្លាយ curds (fresh cheese, yoghurt), see dadhi
navanīta នវនីត = បឺរ butter
sappi ៃសប្បិ= ប្រេង ពី បឺរ ghee

So milk is seemingly not incl. in the 5 tonics.

But there is the list of 8 juices, incl. payopānaṃ, ពយោបានំ, seemingly meaning milk-juice/product and

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...

...seems to support that ខីរ (milk) is incl. in ពយោបានំ (milk-juice/products).

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Bhante Johann,

Kana told Bhante Indaññāno about this topic and Bhante said that milk is not pañcabhesajja and then cited the five tonics

 Sappi
 Navanīta
 Tela
Madhu
Phāṇita

wich are allowed to consume in the afternoon.

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To make the different more clear for Venerables of the Khmer land:

ភេសជ្ជៈ​ទាំង៥

sappi សប្បិ, Ghee , fat, oil from Butter (navanīta)
navanīta នវនីត, បឺរ(ខ្លាញ្ញទឹកដោះគោ), butter (maybe incl. very fat chees)
tela តេល, ប្រេង ឆា ពី សណ្ដែក ឬ ល្ង (sesame, corn) oil
madhu មធុ, ទឹកឃ្មុំ, honey
phāṇita ផាណិត, ស្ករ, sugar (general)

Now to understand the process from khīra, ខីរ ទឹកដោះ (water from breast) to សប្បិ:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៤៤០] ‘‘សេយ្យថាបិ, ចិត្ត, គវា ខីរំ, ខីរម្ហា ទធិ, ទធិម្ហា នវនីតំ, នវនីតម្ហា សប្បិ, សប្បិម្ហា សប្បិមណ្ឌោ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរំ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បិមណ្ឌោតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; ខីរំ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ យស្មិំ សមយេ ទធិ ហោតិ…បេ.… នវនីតំ ហោតិ… សប្បិ ហោតិ… សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ហោតិ, នេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ ខីរន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន ទធីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន នវនីតន្តិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ, ន សប្បីតិ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ; សប្បិមណ្ឌោ ត្វេវ តស្មិំ សមយេ សង្ខំ គច្ឆតិ។ ឯវមេវ ខោ, ចិត្ត, យស្មិំ សមយេ ឱឡារិកោ អត្តបដិលាភោ ហោតិ…បេ.…

khīra ខីរ = ទឹកដោះ milk from the giver
dadhi ទធិ = ទឹកដោះ ទ្បើងឬក្លាយ curds (fresh cheese, yoghurt), see dadhi
navanīta នវនីត = បឺរ butter
sappi ៃសប្បិ= ប្រេង ពី បឺរ ghee

So milk is seemingly not incl. in the 5 tonics.

But there is the list of 8 juices, incl. payopānaṃ, ពយោបានំ, seemingly meaning milk-juice/product and

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...

...seems to support that ខីរ (milk) is incl. in ពយោបានំ (milk-juice/products).

Bhante Johann,

Kana will show this to Bhante Indaññāno and give the response to it... need some time..

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Sure, Bhante, lot of patient and always not easy to explain an issue if not well-versed often (if not meeting the right words at right time.

Sadhu for effort.
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Bhante Johann,

Bhante told, that milk, even when it is mixed with others is not allowed to be consume in the afternoon. Gave a example:

This cup of tea, mixed up with sugar is allowable to consume in the afternoon.

But when this cup of tea is mixed with milk, it is no more allowed to consume it in the afternoon, because it contains milk.

Now Kana has to leave, time for evening puja.

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Bhante Johann,

Kana told Bhante Indaññāno about this topic and Bhante said that milk is not pañcabhesajja and then cited the five tonics

 Sappi
 Navanīta
 Tela
Madhu
Phāṇita

wich are allowed to consume in the afternoon.

Just to get sure that Bhante Khemakumara understood the issue. The 5 tonics to be stored 7 days are clear: no milk incl. but there is a list of eight juices (like banana, rice water...) to be consumed in the afternoon, also containing payopānaṃ, which is by many dictionaries translated as milk-juice. Also the Thai commentaries justify on it the consume of milk-products in the afternoon (yet not to be stored).

Now my person found this occasion in the Sekhiyas where milk (khira) seems to be incl. in milk-juices (payopānaṃ). When reading the previous post it might be good understood.

Both Bhantes knows my persons approach in regard of milk till just comming accross this.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Bhante Johann,

Bhante told, that milk, even when it is mixed with others is not allowed to be consume in the afternoon. Gave a example:

This cup of tea, mixed up with sugar is allowable to consume in the afternoon.

But when this cup of tea is mixed with milk, it is no more allowed to consume it in the afternoon, because it contains milk.

Now Kana has to leave, time for evening puja.

That's not the point. It's about one of the 8 juices, payopānaṃ, which seems to be "milk-juice". Bhante knows that my person had no "problem" with no milk till coming across as mentioned.

Maybe ask Bhante of what he thinks payopānaṃ ពយោបានំ means and whether it seems that khira ខីរ is incl. under payopānaṃ when reading:

[៦២៧] តេន សមយេន ពុទ្ធោ ភគវា កោសម្ពិយំ វិហរតិ ឃោសិតារាមេ។ តេន ខោ បន សមយេន អញ្ញតរេន ព្រាហ្មណេន សង្ឃស្ស បយោបានំ បដិយត្តំ ហោតិ។ ភិក្ខូ សុរុសុរុការកំ ខីរំ បិវន្តិ។ អញ្ញតរោ នដបុព្ពកោ ភិក្ខុ ឯវមាហ – ‘‘សព្ពោយំ...
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A record on the matter in Khmer, Bhante Khemakumara , so that Bhante Indaññāno could understand the point of discussion.

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The eight juices are at least mentioned in the Mahanidessa (by Ven. Sariputta) as linked above:

1. kosambapānaṃ
2. kolapānaṃ
3. badarapānaṃ
4. ghatapānaṃ
5. telapānaṃ
6. payopānaṃ
7. yāgupānaṃ
8. rasapānaṃ

Incl. Kola-pānaṃ btw. as well, the coffee drug of the ascetics.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa



[១៥៩]

អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ;

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា, ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ។

អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានន្តិ។ អន្នានន្តិ ឱទនោ កុម្មាសោ សត្តុ មច្ឆោ មំសំ។ បានានន្តិ អដ្ឋ បានានិ – អម្ពបានំ, ជម្ពុបានំ, ចោចបានំ, មោចបានំ, មធុបានំ , មុទ្ទិកបានំ, សាលុកបានំ, ផារុសកបានំ។ អបរានិបិ អដ្ឋ បានានិ – កោសម្ពបានំ, កោលបានំ, ពទរបានំ, ឃតបានំ, តេលបានំ, បយោបានំ, យាគុបានំ, រសបានំ។ ខាទនីយានន្តិ បិដ្ឋខជ្ជកំ, បូវខជ្ជកំ, មូលខជ្ជកំ, តចខជ្ជកំ, បត្តខជ្ជកំ, បុប្ផខជ្ជកំ, ផលខជ្ជកំ។ វត្ថានន្តិ ឆ ចីវរានិ – ខោមំ, កប្បាសិកំ, កោសេយ្យំ, កម្ពលំ, សាណំ, ភង្គន្តិ – អន្នានមថោ បានានំ ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ។

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរាតិ។ លទ្ធាតិ លទ្ធា លភិត្វា អធិគន្ត្វា វិន្ទិត្វា បដិលភិត្វា ន កុហនាយ, ន លបនាយ, ន នេមិត្តិកតាយ, ន និប្បេសិកតាយ, ន លាភេន លាភំ និជិគីសនតាយ និជិគិំសនតាយ (សី. ស្យា.), ន កដ្ឋទានេន, ន វេឡុទានេន, ន បត្តទានេន, ន បុប្ផទានេន, ន ផលទានេន, ន សិនានទានេន, ន ចុណ្ណទានេន, ន មត្តិកាទានេន, ន ទន្តកដ្ឋទានេន, ន មុខោទកទានេន, ន ចាដុកម្យតាយ, ន មុគ្គសូប្យតាយ ន មុគ្គសុប្បតាយ (សី.), ន មុគ្គសូបតាយ (ស្យា.), ន បារិភដយយតាយ, ន បីឋមទ្ទិកតាយ បិដ្ឋិមំសិកតាយ (សី.), បិដ្ឋិមទ្ទិកតាយ (ក.), ន វត្ថុវិជ្ជាយ, ន តិរច្ឆានវិជ្ជាយ, ន អង្គវិជ្ជាយ, ន នក្ខត្តវិជ្ជាយ, ន ទូតគមនេន, ន បហិណគមនេន, ន ជង្ឃបេសនិយេន, ន វេជ្ជកម្មេន, ន នវកម្មេន, ន បិណ្ឌបដិបិណ្ឌកេន, ន ទានានុប្បទានេន ធម្មេន សមេន លទ្ធា លភិត្វា អធិគន្ត្វា វិន្ទិត្វា បដិលភិត្វាតិ – លទ្ធា។ ន សន្និធិំ កយិរាតិ អន្នសន្និធិំ បានសន្និធិំ វត្ថសន្និធិំ យានសន្និធិំ សយនសន្និធិំ គន្ធសន្និធិំ អាមិសសន្និធិំ ន ករេយ្យ ន ជនេយ្យ ន សញ្ជនេយ្យ ន និព្ពត្តេយ្យ នាភិនិព្ពត្តេយ្យាតិ – លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា។

ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោតិ។ អន្នំ វា ន លភាមិ , បានំ វា ន លភាមិ, វត្ថំ វា ន លភាមិ, កុលំ វា ន លភាមិ, គណំ វា ន លភាមិ, អាវាសំ វា ន លភាមិ, លាភំ វា ន លភាមិ, យសំ វា ន លភាមិ, បសំសំ វា ន លភាមិ, សុខំ វា ន លភាមិ, ចីវរំ វា ន លភាមិ, បិណ្ឌបាតំ វា ន លភាមិ, សេនាសនំ វា ន លភាមិ, គិលានបច្ចយភេសជ្ជបរិក្ខារំ វា ន លភាមិ, គិលានុបដ្ឋាកំ វា ន លភាមិ, ‘‘អប្បញ្ញាតោម្ហី’’តិ ន តសេយ្យ ន ឧត្តសេយ្យ ន បរិត្តសេយ្យ ន ភាយេយ្យ ន សន្តាសំ អាបជ្ជេយ្យ , អភីរូ អស្ស អឆម្ភី អនុត្រាសី អបលាយី, បហីនភយភេរវោ វិគតលោមហំសោ វិហរេយ្យាតិ – ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ។

តេនាហ ភគវា –

‘‘អន្នានមថោ បានានំ, ខាទនីយានមថោបិ វត្ថានំ;

លទ្ធា ន សន្និធិំ កយិរា, ន ច បរិត្តសេ តានិ អលភមានោ’’តិ។
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The distinction:

Pānānanti aṭṭha pānāni – ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ (manu say banana), mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ (honey drink) , muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ.

Aparānipi aṭṭha pānāni – kosambapānaṃ ?, kolapānaṃ (drinks from kola fruit, similar coffee), badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ (oily drinks), payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ (water from rice cooking), rasapānaṃ (flavored water).

Khādanīyānanti piṭṭhakhajjakaṃ [gross food], pūvakhajjakaṃ, mūlakhajjakaṃ, tacakhajjakaṃ, pattakhajjakaṃ, pupphakhajjakaṃ, phalakhajjakaṃ.

My person can not identify all for now. But good if that would be clear, incl. payopānaṃ.

(Btw. Bhante Khemakumara , may Bhante keep in mind that Bhante Indannano  as well as all the Ven. before in Cambodia didn't not know any about milk product and ways of them at all beside of the cans of Haltbarmilch and Condense milk sold, so sure not easy. Not even know people in this area of Asia how to get milk from a cow or other animals. This milk cans came known maybe in the 1930-40th short before the Tipitaka was translated. Such as cheese maybe in the 60-70th, short before war and after transl. war mainly finished)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 06:40:15 PM by Johann »
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