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2019 Dec 13 05:48:07
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2019 Dec 13 05:36:56
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2019 Dec 12 04:26:54
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2019 Dec 11 13:58:31
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2019 Dec 11 12:06:14
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2019 Dec 11 11:33:06
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2019 Dec 11 11:31:42
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2019 Dec 11 10:32:13
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2019 Dec 11 10:31:19
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2019 Dec 11 07:12:00
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2019 Dec 11 05:12:53
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2019 Dec 11 05:11:39
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2019 Dec 10 21:14:57
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2019 Dec 10 11:21:08
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2019 Dec 10 11:11:11
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2019 Dec 10 11:08:18
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2019 Dec 09 23:28:27
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2019 Dec 07 09:19:49
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2019 Dec 05 09:56:53
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2019 Dec 05 09:56:09
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2019 Dec 05 09:46:00
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2019 Dec 05 09:14:32
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2019 Dec 04 20:16:08
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2019 Dec 04 07:35:06
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2019 Dec 04 06:31:50
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2019 Dec 04 06:31:42
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2019 Dec 04 06:31:28
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2019 Dec 01 13:29:37
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2019 Nov 30 21:38:39
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2019 Nov 30 21:30:49
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2019 Nov 29 14:25:08
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2019 Nov 29 14:19:23
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2019 Nov 29 14:18:08
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2019 Nov 29 14:12:37
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2019 Nov 29 14:07:13
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2019 Nov 29 14:05:22
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2019 Nov 29 12:05:41
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Nov 29 11:51:15
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2019 Nov 28 20:08:22
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2019 Nov 28 13:11:37
Johann: Bhante

2019 Nov 28 12:52:24
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2019 Nov 27 23:19:47
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2019 Nov 27 22:59:18
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2019 Nov 27 10:20:04
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2019 Nov 27 10:16:58
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2019 Nov 26 20:55:22
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2019 Nov 26 19:35:55
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2019 Nov 26 10:53:53
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2019 Nov 26 09:24:16
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2019 Nov 26 08:53:07
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2019 Nov 26 00:07:54
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2019 Nov 25 23:46:46
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2019 Nov 25 23:28:18
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2019 Nov 24 22:51:00
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2019 Nov 24 16:27:57
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2019 Nov 24 16:01:25
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2019 Nov 24 13:04:02
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2019 Nov 22 20:01:23
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2019 Nov 22 19:49:34
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2019 Nov 22 19:47:27
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2019 Nov 22 19:40:12
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2019 Nov 22 19:38:57
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2019 Nov 22 18:21:55
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2019 Nov 22 17:27:04
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2019 Nov 22 00:13:18
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2019 Nov 20 15:54:51
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2019 Nov 20 14:18:59
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Author Topic: Relay on what and whom?  (Read 905 times)

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Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 01:37:19 PM »
Good, Nyom saddhamma .

If knowing, seeing, then, knowing and seeing to relay on what and whom, may Nyom wander on well.
Dear Bhante Johann,
It is certainly through knowing and seeing the dhamma that one sees the Buddha as well-proclaimed by the Buddha in the Vakkali sutta (SN 22.87). And it is by relying on the dhamma that one has seen, dwelling with the dhamma as one's refuge, that the stream of dhamma leads one onwards (opanayiko).

On the topic of elders, the Elder Venerable Ananda proclaims it so beautifully in the Ananda Theragatha as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning. This is the root of the holy life, therefore one should be an expert on the Dhamma.

The bhikkhu who delights in the Dhamma, who rejoices in the Dhamma, meditating on the Dhamma, recollecting the Dhamma, does not fall away from the true Dhamma.

* of(f)-topic:
Good, Nyom saddhamma
(Btw., as it came to mind, did Nyom already visited Ven. Thanissaro and spend times with him. He is already old but more near,  Nyom, in many regard. For Nyom isn't that young either and things to far, in many regard, might be not in reach. It's good to do service to near elders in reach)

(Yes, I met Bhante Thanissaro last year. The venerable one comes to my part of town once a year. There are other venerable elders from the Ajahn Chah lineage closer to my part of town who provide opportunities for fulfilling lay disciple duties towards the bhikkhu sangha.)

* Johann : link added, Dhamma quote proper put, bbc's corrected
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 02:25:40 PM by Johann »

Online Johann

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2019, 02:06:05 PM »
Truly, Nyom Ebo ( saddhamma ): One who sees the Dhamma, sees the Arahat. One who sees the Arahat, sees the Dhamma.

Such one has no more doubt, does no more depend to guided to fail in judging in regard of the Refuge and Aim.

And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.

Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" , yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.

And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

This to should be considered well, if wishing to gain real liberal, as long not rightly perceived an Arahat, the Saddhamma when having fallen in rage "Only what I heard from the Buddha direct, is true and else counterfeit"

* Johann : It's not possible to get a person known it not living together, trade, discuss and go through hardships, and it was asked in relation of Nyoms desire of going forth, since Bhante is the only person traceable in the west, who could transport very basics of the ancestor into the West, able to take on the burden to dwell nevertheless under far outsider with strong wrong views, and it will disappear again after he will disappear. My person does not think that Nyom could find any authentic guide in original culture areas who could bring him down on earth, there where right view can be gained unshakeable, tamed.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 02:18:51 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2019, 08:00:19 PM »
One who sees the Dhamma, sees the Arahat. One who sees the Arahat, sees the Dhamma.
Sādhu, sādhu, sādhu Bhante.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
What Bhante says, accords with what the Buddha says in the Vakkali sutta:
One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.

Quote from: ??
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid. In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: ??
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" , yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.

Quote from: ??
And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

Sādhu Bhante. If I may add the obvious from the Pāsādikā sutta excerpt I quoted about two other destroyers of learning: One who deducts anything from the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be purer", and one who add anything to the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be more complete".

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2019, 08:38:53 PM »

Quote from: Johann
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid.
Habitual Don Quichote, could one say on this  :) Such is called traumata. And how could a no-sekha-no-asheka ever know as long not gained stream.

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: Johann
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" , yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.
A beloved source of forest romantiker... Should we put it now in the trash basket, in many regards not so fitting to the main Nikayas?

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
Quote from: Johann
And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

Sādhu Bhante. If I may add the obvious from the Pāsādikā sutta excerpt I quoted about two other destroyers of learning: One who deducts anything from the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be purer", and one who add anything to the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be more complete".
Sadhu , Sadhu, and further short teachings (actually require often explaining in detail) in this manner are found in AN 1.098-139: Dutiyapamādādivaggo: The Second Section on Heedlessness and AN 1.140-149: Adhammavaggo: The section on wrong Dhamma

...and therefore, Nyom Ebo, good if doing carefull (in both directions, adding, censure), not knowing all shoes and finally barefoot all the way, whether in towns, under Brahmins, beggars,... and in the rocky wilds. Stumps and stones are like landmines possible hindrances in the world. The matter of stumps, stones, landmines isn't easy learned if still wearing shoes (and like mostly spoken also in simile manner for more refined spheres and useable in different context)

Only if seeing the Arahat it's not more or lesser supportive commentary, what ever found in this heritage carried by senses and their objects.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 08:52:59 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2019, 10:04:29 PM »

Quote from: Johann
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid.
Habitual Don Quichote, could one say on this  :) Such is called traumata. And how could a no-sekha-no-asheka ever know as long not gained stream.
I don't fully understand Bhante's language here but I think Bhante is wondering how one can straighten up one's view and become a saddhānusārī or dhammānusārī if one is not fortunate enough to get a true kalyāṇamitta's guidance. If this is Bhante's question, then the answer can be found in my post to Āvuso Vivek. It is only by relying on the Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga of the Vinayapitaka; and Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada verses, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theragāthā and Therīgāthā of the Suttapitaka.

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: Johann
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" , yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.
A beloved source of forest romantiker... Should we put it now in the trash basket, in many regards not so fitting to the main Nikayas?
According to Buddha's instructions in the Mahāpadesa sutta, only dhamma that does not accord with the dhammavinaya belongs to the trash basket. The Theragatha and Therigatha are commentaries of Elders who know and see and accord well with the dhammavinaya and so belong to the saddhamma basket.

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2019, 11:12:45 PM »
Repeat-off-ender  :)

So guided by a suicide commentator, attached to western philosophy, Nyom Ebo thinks he can purify the t what elders transported till here, out of reason?

My person would dismantle the Thera/therigatha here (was pleased to see sime accounts on the matter some weeks ago, by Bhante Thanissaro), by means of the more fine Dhamma to make the bias visible, since nevertheless it would increase the view on different context, but reduce further faith toward the Sangha. A special the saddhānusārī would totally cur off by such approaches. Would Nyom lose much if Thag, Thig lands in the basket to put aside, he hold? Why, if dhammānusārī could it happen to do not trace the "shortcommings", even potent dangers within the collection of Elders "poems"?

There are as well many parts in the other "saddhamma's" "only this is true"  area causing easy wrong attention and give food for papanca.

It's not possible to follow the higher correct, the more refined, if the near next isn't right considered penetrated. It lead's sooner or later to the "Channa-punishment" or as told, easy to be caught by Devadattas hosts.

It's not so that destroying the danger of stumps and stones outside make one able to walk barefoot even in a uneven wildness. People who didn't penetrate the basic maths, although able to go fare, using their old merits, if enviroment changes, relay on merits is out of reach there, than they get lost even with simple tasks. So again, importand is the difficult, but importand friend , no short cuts here.

A main different between the newage-commentors and the old is, that they do not give into putting into aspects to lead on the path back "understand it in this way", but tend to cut of not only faith, but also to challange own defiements and skill to use given without destroying an old culture by replacing natural dangers with labor means of theory.

Did even the Sublime Buddha act in such ways, when seeing a son of good family bowing down to the six directions?

He could, on the risk to uproot any foundation of the young man, have success, yes, but he did not only just praise the safe bet. This so hard to take right view which is connected with merits, for the palast Yogies.

Nyom Vivek shortly tried the use the root-sequence teaching also to defend a position. The problem when misusing certain tools is, that althought they work in dependend areas, they leave one by holding on the root instead of understanding that it points toward uprooting the very root and that needs to be made by stages, the raw first. Otherwise finding oneself perceiveless caught in senseobjects, or as forest dweller full of desires, mulas, which eating off the mind. Thats not different here.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 11:51:57 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2019, 01:57:12 AM »
Sorry Bhante Johann. Seems Bhante is back to speaking a language that I cannot follow. May Bhante make his objections to my post more precise if Bhante is seeking clarification. If Bhante is trying to convey a dhamma teaching in his post, may Bhante come down to my level and quote a few suttas to make his point so that I can get an idea about the message Bhante is trying to get across.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2019, 11:53:42 AM »
Maybe the commentary by a later doubt-destroyer helps to provoke defilements in ways that one is able to fall away from wrong concentration, here, no more holding on it, returning to it, gain release by giving up of what gives rise to remorse again and again, block from leaving home/stand for no more seeking after another then unbound:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

A Question (Solved by) Inference

Then King Milinda approached the Venerable Nagasena, greeted him and sat down at a respectful distance. King Milinda, anxious to know, anxious to hear, anxious to remember, anxious to see the light of knowledge, anxious to break down the lack of knowledge, anxious to find the light of knowledge, anxious to expel the darkness of ignorance, aroused extreme steadfastness and zeal and mindfulness and clear consciousness, and spoke thus to the Venerable Nagasena: “Revered Nagasena, have you ever seen the Buddha?”

“No, sire.”

“But have your teachers ever seen the Buddha?”

“No, sire.”

“Revered Nagasena, if you have never seen the Buddha, and if your teachers have never seen the Buddha, well then, revered Nagasena, there is no Buddha; the Buddha is not manifested here.”

“But, sire, did those former noble warriors exist who were the forerunners of your noble warrior dynasty?”

“Yes, revered sir; what doubt is there?”

“Have you, sire, ever seen the former noble warriors?”

“No, revered sir.”

“But have those who have instructed you, sire — priests, generals, judges, chief councilors — have these ever seen the former noble warriors?”

“No, revered sir.”

“But if you, sire, have not seen the former noble warriors and if your instructors have not seen the former noble warriors, where are the former noble warriors?”

“Revered Nagasena, articles of use enjoyed by the former noble warriors are to be seen, that is to say, the white sunshade, the turban, the shoes, the yak-tail fan, the treasure of the sword of state, and the couches of great price. By these we can know and can believe that the former noble warriors existed.”

“Even so, sire, we may also know and believe in this Blessed One. There is this reason according to which we may know and believe that there was this Blessed One. What is the reason? There are, sire, articles of use enjoyed by that Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, that is to say, the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five spiritual faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path.(1) By these the world with the devas knows and believes that there was this Blessed One. For this reason, sire, for this cause, because of this method, because of this inference it should be known that there was this Blessed One.”...

...“Revered Nagasena, make a simile.”

“As sire, a city-architect, when he wants to build a city, first looks about for a district that is level, not elevated, not low-lying, free from gravel and stone, secure, irreproachable and delightful, and then when he has made level there what was not level and has had it cleared of stumps of trees and thorns, he might build a city there. It would be fine and regular, well planned, the moats and encircling walls dug deep, the city gates, the watch-towers and the ramparts strong, the crossroads, squares, junctions and the places where three or four roads meet numerous, the main-roads clean, level and even, the bazar shops well laid out, the city full of parks, pleasances, lakes, lotus pools and wells, adorned with a wide variety of shrines to devas, the whole free from defects. When that city was fully developed, he might go away to another district. Then after a time that city might become rich and prosperous, well stocked with food, secure, successful, happy, without adversity, without accident, crowded with all kinds of people. When these people had seen the city, new, well laid out, without a defect, irreproachable, delightful, they would know by inference: 'Clever indeed is that city-architect who was the builder of the city.'...

...“Such people as these, sire, dwell in the Blessed One's City of Dhamma: those versed in the discourses, those versed in the discipline, those versed in the Abhidhamma, speakers on Dhamma, Jataka-repeaters, Digha-repeaters, Majjhima-repeaters, Samyutta-repeaters, Anguttara-repeaters, Khudaka-repeaters;(12) those possessed of morality, those possessed of concentration, those possessed of wisdom; those who delight in the factors of enlightenment, those with insight, those intent on their own goal; forest-dwellers, those living at the roots of trees, in the open air, on a heap of straw, in cemeteries, those who maintain a sitting posture;(13) those who are practicing rightly, those enjoying fruition, stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners, arahants; those with the threefold knowledge, those with the six super-knowledges, those of psychic power, those gone to the perfection of wisdom; those skilled in the foundations of mindfulness, the right efforts, the bases of psychic power, the spiritual faculties, the powers, the factors of enlightenment, the excellent path; meditation, the liberations, form and formlessness, and the attainments that are peaceful and happy. The City of Dhamma is peopled and packed, crowded and teeming with these arahants like a grove of reeds...
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2019, 12:38:20 PM »
Namo buddhaya,

Sorry for interrupting, but uptill now, I have been completely unable to understand what's going on over here... lots of lessons, long long paragraphs of discussion,...going above my head.

You may call me buddhu(below average minded).

Till now I could understand only welcome part, discussion on,"where should I meditate/go ". Also, yesterday I tried to point out that, "Everyone, Meditate Properly" and "Vivek is not a former wanderer of other sects, he may be called as former householder of hinduism, but is/was a wanderer of basic & oldest buddha dhamma.

Still, this Vivek doesn't belong to any sect or tradition or religion or boundary. This is the biggest problem of Vivek, strongly influenced by basic buddha teachings.

Also, this Vivek is completely against the fight between Jains and Buddhists of modern era because as per history research goes, Mahavira Jain was 20 year older in age than Samyak Sambuddha and they never met rather before going for Samadhi of around 41 days, Siddhartha met  few Mahavira students and was finally influenced by their thoughts about uncontradictory way to eternal happiness(by letting tanha,kaamna,etc. die out of their own thirst.) In India, even in books and tv series we read/watch these.

Sorry, I couldn't understand whatever is going on here. Also, dear Uncle Ebo, can you please give me online link to those core teaching, you mentioned in one of your reply?

* Johann : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 12:49:15 PM by Johann »

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2019, 01:05:17 PM »
Maybe useful to understand the different ways of modern, communist ways of dependency and that strong related to near Nissaya here:

“If one who was previously a member of another religion comes naked, they should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.[4]

4. Commentary: “They should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.” Putting the preceptor in charge, they should search for a robe for him. And likewise with the bowl. So if the preceptor has a bowl and robes, he should be told, “Give them to him.” But if he doesn’t have them, and someone else wants to give them, he should give them to the preceptor, (saying,) “Make these yours and then give them to him.” Why? Sectarians are generally obstreperous. Saying, “The Saṅgha gave me my bowl and robes. Why should I be dependent on you?” he wouldn’t do as taught and admonished. But if his livelihood lies with the preceptor, he will do what he is told. So it is said, “They should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.”

This, is related to teachings as well, since marxism destroys required dependency to really understand dependency, and the dukkha, first, to learn about goodness and attain proper gratitude.

Why? Sectarians are generally obstreperous. Saying, “The Saṅgha gave me my bowl and robes. Why should I be dependent on you?” he wouldn’t do as taught and admonished.


Fellows of Rodin Hoods havn't an ease and  are bound to become/stay orphans without protection.

If one thinks that running around naked, without face, the Uposatha of the Jains, is of glory than it's really difficult.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 01:14:39 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2019, 01:21:49 PM »

* Johann : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)

Okay!😊 thanks for guiding.
Still, I couldn't find anyone worthy of calling Monk or Saint or Sanyaasi or Mahatma or Mahapurush. These addressings are for Noble Behaviour only, which are also called as qualities of a Sage.
 _/\_ buddhaya.

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2019, 01:36:37 PM »

* Johann : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)

Okay!😊 thanks for guiding.
Still, I couldn't find anyone worthy of calling Monk or Saint or Sanyaasi or Mahatma or Mahapurush. These addressings are for Noble Behaviour only, which are also called as qualities of a Sage.
 _/\_ buddhaya.

Conceit of the wanderers from other sects was not always aboundable, Nyom Vivek , even the Buddha couldn't help all or many and if mostly a lot of work. Story of Uruvelakassapa is a good starter.

Good if looking good into the Mahavaga, also to check if ready to go into the depency under the Tripple Gems: Aññatitthiyapubbakathā
The Discussion of Those Previously a Member of Another Religion
.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“Then again one who was previously a member of another religion feels angered, displeased, and upset if dispraise is spoken of the teacher, the view, the persuasion, the preferences, the belief of the religion from which he has come over.

(Suttanta sects or idea-of-Buddhavaca-only sects or Householdersects or Robinhood-sects or "reformer-sects"... are similar regarded from the traditional Sangha, Savaka Sangha)

Also may Nyom take care not to fall into the area of Mv I 48: Theyyasaṃvāsakavatthu — The Case of Affiliation Through Theft , if thinking to go out without real Nissaya, Refuge, yet possible use their lable for seeks within Samsara, other objectives and because easy to live on it.

Focus only on ones duties and servicing, while observing precepts is the secure way within any relation, always able to change and leave as well: Mv I 18: Ācariyavattakathā — The Discussion of Duties Toward a Teacher . Where ever entering, importand not to increase unnecessarily debt. Generosity fist help and Sensitivity through Generosity , Sila, service, is the field of Vipassana for one desiring for Nissaya and being in Dependency.

Whats your current dependency, food for body, food for thoughts for ease giver right now? Do you fullfill the duties in this relations? Did you perform giving into at first place, that able to make use rightly?

Why presenting shine face in areas of trade and sensuallity, yet if arround areas beyond that, stingy to give?

There have been those Ascetics at Buddhas times as well, practicing self-torture for a good time and then returned and enjoyed sensuallity again. That's not of much glory. Better to be honest about one state, saying "my arms are still to short" then to say "the dwell is to deep". Ignoring and denying dependency and it's need, running away as soon as burdensome, isn't really useful for one.

If leaving home without really firm in the Buddhas teacgings and conduct isn't wise if there are areas where Nissaya could be found, others the in areas where the Sasana died off, has been taken over by other sects for there objectives.

Not that it is impossible for all but very rare. So good to maintain good and given relations via this realm, yet the "roles" for success are the same.

Take your time to gain firm faith and prove all while carring about duties and Sila. Taking refuge is voluntary as giving is (can not be demanded) and requires conditions.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 02:14:07 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2019, 02:33:19 PM »
Or to give another sample for the cases only follow what fits to ones range, stand, stick holding on:

Picking Mangoes

If a mango is five meters off the ground and we want it, we can't use a ten-meter picking pole to pick it, because it's too long. We can't use a two-meter picking pole either, because it's too short.

Don't go thinking that a person with a PhD. has an easy time practicing the Dhamma because he knows so much. Don't go thinking that way. Sometimes people with a PhD. are too long.

Those possessing much knowledge, high intellectual, philosophers, yet not really practicing in the wild, tend to Nihilism. Those around in the wild, yet less knowledge and not well instructed, full of romanic, tend to eternalism.

Whether to put into sacrifices to shorten ones stick, or to give into to batch it longer, both generosities aren't easy done, holding on ones stand used to pick up fruits. And both are subject to their defilements strategy and tricks of saying "to short is likewise, to long is likewise" to stay where they are.

So good to learn to be honest toward oneself before polishing the bark of a tree standing in the forest while thinking it's the final work for the chair:

Making Tables & Chairs

It's good to make the mind pure and at peace, but it's hard. You have to start with the externals — your bodily actions and words — and work your way in. The path that leads to purity, to being a contemplative, is a path that can wash away greed, anger, and delusion. You have to exercise restraint and self-control, which is why it's hard — but so what if it's hard?

It's like taking wood to make a table or make a chair. It's hard, but so what if it's hard? The wood has to go through that process. Before it can become a table or a chair, we have to go through the coarse and heavy stages.

It's the same with us. We have to become skillful where we aren't yet skillful, admirable where we aren't yet admirable, competent where we aren't yet competent.

Otherwise you wouldn't get ride of

Mange

The Buddha said, "Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange."

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

Right view, right path isn't gained by meditation, by dwelling in the forest, but by listening to the good Dhamma and proper attention ([what's-]birth-giving-[sequence] attention, yonisomanasikāra) while doing so, as Nyom saddhamma adviced Nyom Vivek before already. Yet is is by the 10 kinds of merits that this kind of attention, vipassana-attention gets trained. Yet there are given possibilities for such given here, in this Ashram, forest, as well, is no access or inspiration elsewhere that help maintain the Nimitta of Sublime receiver, the Gems, liberation.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 02:57:37 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2019, 04:00:47 PM »
Answer is simple to ,"not finding anyone worthy of noble words".

Good householder doing or trying to do right livelihood can be a sage(if s/he wants to go forth for Nibbana like prince Gautama & prince Mahavira). Noone(including me) is on right action and right livelihood path. Being said that, might be possible,  some are good householders but they themselves are in learning phase trying hard to gather and realize good material before declaring themselves as a Sage wearing robes of a Sage.

To, "thinking to go out without real Nissaya, Refuge, yet possible use their lable for seeks within Samsara, other objectives and because easy to live on it",
---
--Real Refuge is taken at mind level & can be seen by body, speech, thinking action. Merely by wearing a tag of any tradition doesn't mean that person is a Sage.

A sage can never go against anyone(i.e. can't raise objections) Untill enlightenment is reached.
Sage is one, who is free from worldly concerns(total eight),eg.  of praising or unpraising someone.
Sage is one who treats everyone at equal scale other than an enlightened one.
Sage is one who is muni (Noble silenced) to this world Untill enlightenment is reached.
Sage is one who doesn't depend upon boundaries, formalities, traditions, copyrights, etc.
Sage is one who doesn't dwell either among householders  or  among homeless and wanders in meditation till enlightenment.

------
------
An enlightened one can never praise or unpraise anyone, can never go against anyone,  can only point out false or self-contradictory thoughts/beliefs/doctrines.

Being said, above are few of the characterstics/qualities of a sage(a full time Meditator) and an enlightened one.

Personal experience says, Noone(including myself) falls in any one othe above 2 categories. Anone else might have met or is in touch with such but me.

 _/\_ buddhaya.

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2019, 04:52:40 PM »
Nyom Vivek(a) (= detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" (of heart), discrimination (of thought) see Avatar-story

No need for refuge, for guide, for Nissaya, if found the Unbond already for oneself. And again: selfhonesty and lack of capacity or not seeing the way, and guid, doesn't mean that there aren't. If ones conditions are weak, even it talking to Buddha one wouldn't see. Thats why a non-student, worldling is still capable to harm even the Buddha, kill even an Arahat, splitt Sanghas and also kill one parents (goodness giver).

A fool, knowing that being a fools, is called a wise to that extent.

So good to get Buddhas techungs and conducts first known and a good guide to streamenter is found here .

Reading the links given first, then asking of what needs release from doubts, is usefull to be regarded as serious, next to end the notions of hypocritical modesty and facehidding, Nyom Vivek . Whould he trust his guide if running hidden around?

And total no to non-judgement, non-prais, non-blame, since isn't the whole path, the right judgenent of what is lower, equal or more sublime.

And this right judgement has to be learned from teachers: The Power of Judgment  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:12:06 PM by Johann »
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