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Talkbox

2019 Dec 14 14:09:47
Johann: Sokh chomreoun

2019 Dec 14 13:53:34
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ (My day just ending here now, after night-shift :) )

2019 Dec 14 13:45:25
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 14 12:59:30
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 14 11:44:11
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Dec 14 10:57:23
Moritz: Chom reap sour, bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 14 08:57:33
Khemakumara: សទ្ធា saddhā faith

2019 Dec 14 07:04:00
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 14 05:21:41
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_

2019 Dec 14 05:19:58
Khemakumara: May all living be-ings, seen and unseen be free from all dukkha. May it be a path- and fruitful day. 

2019 Dec 14 05:10:41
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 13 10:50:10
Johann: Called, one does not only look after to master, but also to maintain ones address proper, or?

2019 Dec 13 09:48:22
Danilo: Why 'master'?

2019 Dec 13 09:47:44
Danilo: Bhante Johann _/\_

2019 Dec 13 09:46:06
Johann: Master Danilo

2019 Dec 13 09:33:15
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 13 09:27:16
Johann: Nyom

2019 Dec 13 07:56:23
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 13 07:17:09
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 13 05:48:07
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Dec 13 05:36:56
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 12 04:26:54
Johann: Bhante Kheminda

2019 Dec 11 13:58:31
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Dec 11 12:50:57
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 11 12:10:02
Johann: Mudita

2019 Dec 11 12:06:14
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Kana sent to Pou Chanroth, he replied Bhante also told him at his home this morning  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 11:33:06
Johann: "As he is recollecting the Sangha, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when clothing is cleansed through the proper technique. "

2019 Dec 11 11:31:42
Johann: Sadhu, Sadhu, recollecting the Sangha

2019 Dec 11 10:32:13
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 10:31:19
Cheav Villa: May this should be a path of Uposotha today Cleansing of defilement mind

2019 Dec 11 07:12:00
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 11 06:24:15
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Dec 11 05:12:53
Khemakumara: May it be a path- and fruitful Uposatha

2019 Dec 11 05:11:39
Khemakumara: "And what is the Uposatha of the Noble Ones? It is the cleansing of the defiled mind through the proper technique.

2019 Dec 10 21:14:57
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ I kana thought of Bhante in health condition or battery  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 12:01:52
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:21:08
Cheav Villa: Bhante  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ the landowner would be off the gate way soon? _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:11:11
Johann: Sokh chomreoun all

2019 Dec 10 11:08:18
Cheav Villa: Master Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 10 11:08:02
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 10 10:48:07
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 09 23:28:27
Vithou:  _/\_

2019 Dec 07 09:19:49
Chanroth:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:56:53
Johann: sokh chomreoun, nyom

2019 Dec 05 09:56:09
Moritz: Taking leave. May Bhante dwell in good health _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:46:00
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 05 09:14:32
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_

2019 Dec 05 08:09:04
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Dec 04 20:16:08
saddhamma:  _/\_Bhante Johann. Wishing you speedy recovery.

2019 Dec 04 07:35:06
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:36:37
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:32:33
Johann: Sadhu

2019 Dec 04 06:31:50
Johann: Sokh chomreoun, Nyom (May welbeing increase)

2019 Dec 04 06:31:50
Moritz: May all spend a good Uposatha _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:31:42
Khemakumara: May all have a path- and fruiful Uposatha

2019 Dec 04 06:31:34
Moritz: _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:31:28
Moritz: Vandami Bhante Khemakumara _/\_

2019 Dec 04 06:08:13
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Dec 04 01:50:53
saddhamma: Āvuso Moritz _/\_

2019 Dec 04 01:15:40
Moritz: Bong Ebo _/\_

2019 Dec 01 13:29:37
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 21:38:39
Johann: Nyom

2019 Nov 30 21:30:49
Cheav Villa: May Bhante get well soon _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 19:04:39
Cheav Villa: Vandami Bhante Johann  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante Khemakumara  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 30 17:34:10
Khemakumara: Nyom

2019 Nov 30 16:43:46
Johann: Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 30 06:46:37
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Nov 29 20:24:07
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 18:59:11
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Sadhu Sadhu

2019 Nov 29 16:01:17
Johann: Ratana Sutta , and one more public.

2019 Nov 29 14:25:08
Cheav Villa:   _/\_ Yes, eveyone here got flu and almost everywhere..  :-\ :) _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:19:23
Moritz: Sadhu _/\_ Yes, sickness very much present here as well.  :-\  :)

2019 Nov 29 14:18:08
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:12:37
Johann: (May all and everyone get soon/quick free fom sickness) Sadhu

2019 Nov 29 14:07:13
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយអ្នកទាំងអស់គ្នាឆាប់ជាពីរោគា គ្រប់ៗគ្នា _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 14:05:22
Cheav Villa: សូមអោយព្រះអង្គឆាប់ជាពីជម្ងឺផ្តាសាយ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 29 12:05:41
Cheav Villa:  _/\_

2019 Nov 29 11:51:15
Moritz: Bong Villa _/\_

2019 Nov 28 20:08:22
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 28 13:11:37
Johann: Bhante

2019 Nov 28 12:52:24
Khemakumara:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ Bhante

2019 Nov 27 23:19:47
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 27 22:59:18
Khemakumara: Nyom

2019 Nov 27 10:20:04
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 27 10:16:58
Khemakumara: May it be a path -and fruitful after-the-Newmoon-uposatha-day

2019 Nov 26 20:55:22
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 26 19:35:55
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_

2019 Nov 26 11:50:14
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 26 10:53:53
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 26 09:24:16
Johann: A blessed and united Newmoon uposatha all touchable and taking on it

2019 Nov 26 08:53:07
Cheav Villa:  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 26 00:07:54
Johann: Moi, moi, Nyom. Ma dom ma chumheang (Slowly, slowly... step by step) much joy in all good virtuous undertakings.

2019 Nov 25 23:46:46
Moritz: Chom reap leah _/\_ (many things to do...)

2019 Nov 25 23:28:18
Johann: Meister Moritz

2019 Nov 25 23:04:36
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 22:55:28
Johann: Nyom

2019 Nov 24 22:51:00
saddhamma: Bhante Johann _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 16:27:57
Cheav Villa: Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2019 Nov 24 16:01:25
Johann:  _/\_ Bhante Ariyadhammika

2019 Nov 24 13:04:02
Johann: May one not feel disturbed while my person might share merits in many different topics, as just possibility. Anumodana

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Author Topic: Relay on what and whom?  (Read 949 times)

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Offline Vivek

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2019, 07:15:20 PM »
Ok! Now this I am able to understand ,simple and short  paragraph.

Yes, just had a quick look at links,
1. Avatar link is about face hiding or non-hiding.
2. This link is about fruits of meditation like sota, Anagaami, ....
3. This, I think is about sage pointing faults of a newbee.Maybe(I am not sure), sage in this link can an enlightened one.
 Still, reading completely ,might take time as eyes & head hurt on mobile.

To Right judgement::
I realized this about a sage and enlightened one during previous journey.
------It is as(in a very soft voice, it came)::

"Vivek, See from the eyes of a true sage(or just sage), who has not been enlightened till now. Why would such person divide society on high or low, why would such person raise any objection when s/he is not sure about The Truth? S/He would remain & will have to remain silence to dig this subconscious mind and remove defilements of self."

This was the moment, I stopped arguing or shutting-up everyone(anyone from any tradition) by pointing out their tradition's fault and follower's fault.

Again, second realization came as::

"Vivek, now try to see or analyze from the perspective from an enlightened one. Why would such Noble blame anyone or discourage anyone when knowledge has already been attained that, "I(ignorant one) was also committing mistakes due to ,'Ignorance'. Blaming someone when Ignorance remains will only increase fear"? Why should Ignorant one be blamed rather its, 'Ignorance' that has to be pointed-out, it's the faulty karma and the faulty direction(from Awareness/Ignorance to Ignorance) that has to be pointed-out?"
Question:: What about Devdutta?Why was he blamed?
Answer::
"Vivek, enlightened one never blamed any one, rather Ignorance in karma and the Ignorant Karma was pointed-out. Instead of blaming, Enlightened one always maintained compassion to such extent that everyone can come to a same scale. Remember, story about drunk elephant, story about Angulimaal, story about killers who came to kill, story about Ignorance itself(I was the one who was dwelled in Ignorance...even here ignorance was not blamed rather self-dwellness in ignorance was pointed out. Devdutta was never blamed by enlightened one rather, atlast his direction was pointed out"

Thanks for the links, reading them now, trying to understand ... if goes above head, will write here.

 _/\_ Buddhaya.

Online Johann

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2019, 07:58:37 PM »
Mudita

(Mara, Sect leaders... "enemies of the Buddha", arguing "harmony", equanimity is higher then Sacca, truth, judging right, often tried to silent and win over the Buddha with "a sage wouldn't do that", but that in detail, on what compassion leally means, later.)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:04:19 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2019, 08:26:28 AM »
Namo buddhaya,

Sorry for interrupting, but uptill now, I have been completely unable to understand what's going on over here... lots of lessons, long long paragraphs of discussion,...going above my head.

You may call me buddhu(below average minded).

Āvuso Vivek,
Do not feel “buddhu” if you cannot understand what is going on here. I am sure Bhante Johann has experienced some benefits from the dhamma as taught in his tradition and is very contented with his experiences and quite convinced that we can all benefit from his dhamma as well. But you may just not be the right assembly for Bhante's long long paragraphs of discussions.

You will come across many other Dhamma speakers who are equally contented with their dhamma and equally convinced that others can benefit and so would want to share their dhamma out of compassion, hopefully without stabbing other dhamma speakers with verbal daggers.

Although these dhamma speakers have good intentions for sharing their knowledge, the Buddha has said in the Sallekha sutta (see MN 8, Venerable Bodhi’s translation): that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; … that one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; So here I offer a translation of the Dhammakathika sutta (AN 4.136) about the Buddha's description of the four kinds of Dhamma speakers, in hopes that it will help you to understand why you need the Mahāpadesa sutta as your standard and guide to  distinguish what is relevant to the goal of the holy life from what is irrelevant until you gain the knowledge and vision of what is path and non-path (maggāmagga) yourself to be able to make the distinction.


O Bhikkhus, there are these four [kinds of] Dhamma speakers. Which four?     

Here, O bhikkhus, a certain Dhamma speaker speaks little and [his speech] is irrelevant, and his assembly does not have the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks little and [his speech] is relevant, and his assembly has the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks much and [his speech] is irrelevant, and his assembly does not have the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks much and [his speech] is relevant, and his assembly has the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

These, O Bhikkhus, are the four [kinds of] Dhamma speakers.


Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2019, 08:48:59 AM »
Sorry, I couldn't understand whatever is going on here. Also, dear Uncle Ebo, can you please give me online link to those core teaching, you mentioned in one of your reply?

Dear Avuso Vivek,
Regarding online links to translations of Buddha's core teachings, please be aware that available translations from the pali have several drawbacks due to lack of representative words in the language it is being translated to, or lack of understanding of the dhamma by the translator (academic approach to the dhamma), or sacrifice fidelity to “proper” English, etc. Much can be lost in translation so it is good to be familiar enough with the pali language to double check available translations.

If I get the time, I will attempt a more direct rendition of the suttas I have recommended on this post. In the meantime, the best available translations, although with a tinge of traditional commentarial bias, is by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. Most of Venerable Bodhi’s work is copyrighted by Wisdom Publications, with both hardcopy and pdf versions available for sale from Wisdom Publications. They must be used under the Copyright Fair Use guidelines if extracts are used in dhamma discussions. Wisdom Publications has generously made some of Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi‘s sutta translations available to the general public, including monastics, for free use under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. 

Another good translation work is by the Pali Text Society (PTS). PTS has also generously made translations of several books of the suttapitaka available in the Public Domain under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 (CC BY-NC 3.0) licence, or the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.

Both suttacentral.net and obo.genaud.net host  Bhikkhu Bodhi’s and PTS translations that are available in the Public Domain. Note that both sites also offer alternative translations and have generously made their source codes and translations/sources available on github for developers, should the software engineer in you rekindle interest in taking on a translation project  ;-). The Public Domain license that governs PTS translations allows for adapting the translations to make improvements and corrections and so can save a lot of time as a pre-translation if you ever take on a translation project in the future.

Venerable Thanissaro also hosts his own translations with rather “new age” and fashionable choice of words on accesstoinsight.org/

I believe Bhante Johann is also working on hosting some translations from what he considers to be “trusted sources“, like Venerable Thanissaro, Avuso Varado, Sister Upalavana and others but I am not very familiar with Bhante’s work.

Here is a link to a nice summary of the Public Domain licenses to guide your free usage of sutta translations that are made available under these licenses.

obo.genaud.net/frontmatter/004_copyright.htm

* Johann : relation, links to outsiders removed
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:41:38 AM by Johann »

Online Johann

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2019, 10:38:12 AM »
Certain Nyom Ebo isn't yet familar with the tradition of the Noble Ones and prefers to follow householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.

Given, toward the Sangha, Gems, consciously, neither traded, nor Robin hood stolen, nor subject of marked, not in relation with bad people/monks, not in village or public domain, not involved in corruption, improper livelihood and given consume (licencio) for headless people with no shame and respect, like farmer raise pigs. Slaves and outcast and their poor greedy masters/heros. Ghandi and Malcom-Dhamma of destructing Sublime for letting dirt and dark appear bright.

Certain there isn't any relation present here so go on and follow Devadattas host and Maras army. Thats not a village here.

If one follows those encouraging to bad things, to disobedience, to ideas of wrong views and rights... such is called following and association with Papamittas (bad friend, enemies in disguise of friend) and the sure path to ruin in all regards.

Deal, approve, engaging, leading others to steal even from the Gems, such is indeed the most destructive path, partaking on the greatest thievery in the world and use the Gems for gains and stand.

Be aware that communist, marxists, pseudo liberal, are still in the sphere of the six grave downfall deeds.

It's very unlikely, being related in such far out culture, to ever gain the going forth under the Tripple gems but likely to pattern further deep downward, deprived from all Sublime states, path and fruits, devoted to Mara.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

unda the smith:]
"I ask the sage of abundant discernment,
awakened, lord of the Dhamma, free
of craving,
         supreme
among two-legged beings,
      best
of charioteers:
   "How many contemplatives
   are there in the world?
      Please tell me."

[The Buddha:]
"Four contemplatives, Cunda. There isn't a fifth.
Being asked face-to-face, I'll explain:
   the Victor of the path,
   the teacher of the path,
   one who lives by the path,
   & one who corrupts the path."

[Cunda:]
"Whom do the Awakened
call the Victor of the path
[&] one who is an unequalled teacher of the path?
Tell me the one who lives by the path,
and explain to me one who corrupts the path."

[The Buddha:]
"He's crossed over perplexity,
his arrow removed,
delighting in Unbinding, free
of greed,
the leader of the world with its devas:
      one like this
      the Awakened
      call the Victor
      of the path.

He here knows the foremost as foremost,
who right here shows & analyzes the Dhamma,
that sage, a cutter-of-doubt unperturbed:
      he's called the second of monks,
      the teacher of the path.

   Mindful, restrained,
he lives by the well-taught    Dhamma-principles,
            path,
associating with principles without blame:
      he's called the third of monks,
      one who lives by the path.

Creating a counterfeit
of those with good practices,
self-asserting, a corrupter of families,[1] intrusive,
deceitful, unrestrained, chaff,
going around in disguise:
      he's one who corrupts the path.

Any householder, having ferreted these out
   — a discerning disciple of those who are noble —
knowing they aren't all the same,
seeing this, his conviction's not harmed.
For how could the corrupt with the un-
   corrupt,
      the impure with the pure,
         be put on a par?"

Dhamma not in line with Dhamma is as much A-dhamma as A-Dhamma it self, while trade in spheres where on one side purified, could lead to abound the string bond to Mara. Something the fourth Samana is out of range.

karuṇā & upekkhā
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 11:29:16 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2019, 12:03:25 PM »
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thank you very much for letting me know that direct links to external sites are not allowed on this forum. I will keep that in mind  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Certain Nyom Ebo isn't yet familar with the tradition of the Noble Ones and prefers to follow householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.

Different traditions have different views and opinions about what the tradition of the Noble Ones entail. May Bhante be more specific about what Bhante has in mind for the tradition of the Noble Ones?

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2019, 12:44:36 PM »
Perceiving not being given and take, on ideas of rights, isn't the tradition of the Noble ones.
Encouraging to do so, as well to keep outwardly shines to stay in trade on both sides. Speaking one thing, thinking different and act different as spoken and thought, this to, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To take from the Village or forests what has not been given, can not be taken on trust, also this isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To hide things up when in spheres of good but even if conducting bad, isn't tradition of the Noble Ones.
To nourish and take part on the Worlds fruits of trade, on what isn't given not backbound into the world, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To lift oneself above ones parents, above those one depends on and relays on, feeds on them, above those in front, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To bind links toward known rebels and "enemies" of the tradition, to put "harmony" and productivity above Dhamma in line of Dhamma, isn't tradition of the Noble Ones.
To approve common ways, the ways of the villagers as equal or even Sublime the tradition, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Culture marxism, culture thief, and after creating a copy, cut appart from the Noble Ones tradition, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Giving based not on Virtue, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Conducting akusala for what ever sake, for whom ever, not to speak for even lower, or equal, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.

A set of virtues of those having virtues, pleasing to the Noble Ones, incl. livelihood and ways to attain paccaya of gross and fine maintaining possibilities to find highest release is given here in DN 2: Samaññaphala Sutta — The Fruits of the Contemplative Life .

Even if not involved, if associating with bad friends, one is easy suspected (see "defilements to be abound by avoiding) and therefore, if still depending, good to prove a "gifts" bounds, in relation of intentions, objectives and purpose (for world, common, or above and beyond?): AN 4.83: Avannaraha Sutta - Dispraise
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 12:54:30 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2019, 01:03:49 PM »
It touches also an important duty for a student once in relation with preceptor or teacher, to keep the relation maintained and not limited by doubts and good to know if seeking avter preceptor/teacher, Nissaya (Fundation in the tradition):

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.25.24) “Without having taken the preceptor’s [similar  with teacher] leave, (the student) should not give an alms bowl to anyone, nor should he receive an alms bowl from that person.[36]

“He shouldn’t give robe-cloth to that person or receive robe-cloth from that person.

“He shouldn’t give a requisite to that person or receive a requisite from that person.

“He shouldn’t cut that person’s hair or have (his own) hair cut by that person.

“He shouldn’t perform a service for that person or have that person perform a service (for him).

“He shouldn’t act as that person’s steward or have that person act as (his own) steward.

“He shouldn’t be that person’s attendant or take that person as his own attendant.

“He shouldn’t bring back almsfood for that person or have that person bring back almsfood (for him).

“Without having taken the preceptor’s leave, he shouldn’t enter a village, shouldn’t go to a cemetery, shouldn’t leave for a faraway place.[37]
“If the preceptor is sick, (the student) should tend to him as long as life lasts; he should stay (with him) until he recovers.”[38]

Some possible effects to consider if ready and willing to bear them:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others

...

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the seventh.

78. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the eighth.

79. "Bhikkhus, the increase of wealth is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the ninth.

80. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the tenth."

Wisdom here should be understand as the product of right view, virtue, giving/letting go and not accumulation of knowledge unrelated to the sequence, after a stand in the world.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 01:19:50 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2019, 01:51:36 PM »
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for sharing his views about what entails the tradition of the Noble Ones. I was hoping Bhante could also elaborate a bit this statement:
Quote from: ??
householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.
Are householders no longer part of the triple Gems in Bhante's tradition?

Bhante knows my preference for definition of Nobility by the Buddha so may Bhante allow me to share Venerable Nanamoli's translation of Aranavibhanga Sutta as an alternative definition of the tradition of the Noble Ones.
I have removed direct links to conform to the rules of this forum so I hope it is not too much trouble for Bhante.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Sāvatthī in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus:

"Bhikkhus." - "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this:

2. "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you an exposition of non-conflict.

Listen and attend closely to what I shall say." - "Yes, venerable sir," the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

3. "One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial. The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.[1257] One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma. One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that; one should pursue pleasure within oneself. One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech~ One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly. One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage. This is the summary of the exposition of non-conflict.

4. "'One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"The pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires[1258] - low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way.[1259] [231] Disengagement from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires - low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way.

"The pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Disengagement from the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial.'

5. "'The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulne1?s, and right concentration. So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes ... to Nibbāna.'

6. "'One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

7. "How, bhikkhus, does there come to be extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma? When one says: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires - low ... and unbeneficial - are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires -low ... and unbeneficial - are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some.

"When one says: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of selfmortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - [232] are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some.

"When one says: 'All those who have not abandoned the fetter of being[1260] are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those who have abandoned the fetter of being are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some. This is how there comes to be extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma.

8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Ohamma? When one does not say: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires ... have entered upon the wrong way,' but says instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, -and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.[1261] When one does not say: I All those disengaged from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'The disengagement is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"When one does not say: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of self-mortification ... have entered upon the wrong way,' but says instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma. When one does not say: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of self-mortification ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'The disengagement is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"When one does not say: 'All those who have not abandoned the fetter of being ... have entered upon the wrong way,' [233] but says instead: 'As long as the fetter of being is unabandoned, being too is unabandoned,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

When one does not say: 'All those who have abandoned the fetter of being ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'When the fetter of being is abandoned, being also is abandoned,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma.'

9. "'One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure.

What five?

Forms cognizable by the eye sounds cognizable by the ear. .. odours cognizable by the nose fIavours cognizable by the tongue ... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, and that it should be feared.

"Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna ... the second jhāna ... the third jhāna ... the fourth jhāna. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared.

[234] "So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.'

10. "'One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Here, bhikkhus, when one knows covert speech to be untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial, one should on no account utter it. When one knows covert speech to be true, correct, and unbeneficial, one should try not to utter it. But when one knows covert speech to be true, correct, and beneficial, one may utter it, knowing the time to do so.

"Here, bhikkhus, when one knows overt sharp speech to be untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial, one should on no account utter it. When one knows overt sharp speech to be true, correct, and unbeneficial, one should try not to utter it. But when one knows overt sharp speech to be true, correct, and beneficial, one may utter it, knowing the time to do so.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech.'

11. "'One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks hurriedly, one's body grows tired and one's mind becomes excited, one's voice is strained and one's throat becomes hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks hurriedly is indistinct and hard to understand.

"Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks unhurriedly, one's body does not grow tired nor does one's mind become excited, one's voice is not strained nor does one's throat become hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is distinct and easy to understand.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly.'

12. "'One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"How, bhikkhus, does there come to be insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage? Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a 'dish' [pāti], [235] a 'bowl' [patta], a 'vessel' [vittha], a 'saucer' [serāva], a 'pan' [dhāropa], a 'pot' [pot}.a], a 'mug' [hana] or a 'basin' [pislla]. So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, one speaks accordingly, firmly adhering [to that expression] and insisting: 'Only this is correct; anything else is wrong.' This is how there comes to be insistence on local language and overriding normal usage.[1262]

"And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be non-insistence on local language and non-overriding of normal usage? Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a 'dish' ... or a 'basin.' So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, without adhering [to that expression] one speaks accordingly, thinking: 'These venerable ones, it seems, are speaking with reference to this.' This is how there comes to be noninsistence on local language and non-overriding of normal usage.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage.'

13. "Here, bhikkhus, the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires -low ... and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, disengagement from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires low ... and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, disengagement from the pursuit of selfmortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. [236] Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. It is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma is a state beset by suffering ... and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, not extolling and not disparaging and teaching only the Dhamma is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, sensual pleasure - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure - is a state beset by suffering ... and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment, is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is true, correct, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is true, correct, and beneficial is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech that is untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech that is true, correct, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech [237] that is true, correct, and beneficial is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the speech of one who speaks hurriedly is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, non-insistence on local language and nonoverriding of normal usage is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

14. "Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We shall know the state with conflict and we shall know the state without conflict, and knowing these, we shall enter upon the way without conflict.' Now, bhikkhus, Subhuti is a clansman who has entered upon the way without conflict."[1263]

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.


[1257] This is substantially identical with the proclamation with which the newly enlightened Buddha opened his first discourse to the five bhikkhus, before teaching them the Four Noble Truths.

[1258] This is a more complicated expression for the pursuit of sensual pleasure.

[1259] MA: It is "beset by suffering, vexation," etc., through the suffering and vexation, etc., of its results and the suffering and vexation, etc., of its attendant defilements.

[1260] This is craving for being.

[1261] That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) - the mode of practice - without explicit references to persons.

[1262] This problem of "insistence on local language" must have been particularly acute in the Saŋgha, when the bhikkhus lived a life of constant wandering and had to pass through many localities each with their distinct dialects.

[1263] Ven. Subhuti was the younger brother of Anāthapiṇḍika and became a bhikkhu on the day Jeta's Grove was offered to the Saŋgha. The Buddha appointed him the foremost disciple in two categories - those who live without conflict and those who are worthy of gifts.

Quote from: obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/mn/mn.139.ntbb.wp.htm

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2019, 02:17:16 PM »
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for sharing his views about what entails the tradition of the Noble Ones. I was hoping Bhante could also elaborate a bit this statement:
Quote from: ??
householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.
Are householders no longer part of the triple Gems in Bhante's tradition?
As Nyom probable pointed out in the Sutta shared, answering already the question (for what even reason ask, considering that). Householder here means, no virtue, as not penetrated the Senses and does not refer to outwardly clothes, includes a huge amount of people in robes as well, trading with Dhamma, making a lifelihood on it and from corrupting families (those running around in disguise... hiding and act for most accumulations)

Quote from: Nyom Ebo
Bhante knows my preference for definition of Nobility by the Buddha so may Bhante allow me to share Venerable Nanamoli's translation of Aranavibhanga Sutta as an alternative definition of the tradition of the Noble Ones.
I have removed direct links to conform to the rules of this forum so I hope it is not too much trouble for Bhante.

It touches my person and possible others only that far when wrong conducts and bad relations are approved.
It's not in my persons sphere to finally know whether Nyom takes and gives what not given (has reason to take on trust or not, acts on wrong or right view) but signs say he might still used to commons and villagers ways.

Things "trouble" Atma only as far as to assist toward what is kusala and prefent others from wrong view and wrong actions on it.

As far as aware the person of the source, a former related of the punk and rebel sect around Sujato and to adaptation of making the Tipitaka a legal trade subject via Oxford's objections, does not give toward the Sangha, has no relation to the Gems and intents in spheres of householders and rebels.

(The Dhamma shared former on ati.org, was given consciously and personal by Upasaka John B., and received for the Sangha and it's follower then, before he abounded it later to the related of the householder-sects and Robin hoods. It can be used and taken, shared on trust,  found on zugangzureinsicht.org or accesstoinsight.eu, if wishing to relay on given.)

If wishing to know whether given for purpose outward the common, householder, ways and intended without string back to world, good if Nyom personally ask whether he can take and share it for the Sangha and faithfull follower and thereby not only keep his Silas clean but also based on them, would make relation, great merits to dedicate rightly attained here when perceiving the Sublimity within, reflecting on the Savaka Sangha.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 02:23:09 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2019, 02:48:52 PM »
To add: the source of the sutta, owner Buddhist Publication Society: the current trading monk, ( Nyanatusita Bhikkhu ) isn't pleased to see Dhamma-Dana and share for the Sangha, as personally approached and asked and it's strongly to doubt whether obo.genaud actually had asked, went beyound common, and pleasing to the Noble Ones. Their shares for commons are simply a market and honor pressured gifts, likewise the speech of Noble Ones and that of smart trader are often very similar, abstaining from both, praise and blame, but the first out of avoiding accumulations and the secound for gain.

It's the villagers way to "steal" stolen, cheat each other, to battle for trade and gain and sell pseudo-liberality to bind for own lifelihood.

And taking of what isn't given, even if stolen, even if "back", is still taking what isn't given and not Noble, as well. Relays on wrong view, rights, and demanding.

If wishing for simply much wealth (incl. knowledge), many relations, fame, that is also a voluntary way, but the other direction of gain and maintain wisdom and release, not the Noble way. So those are two different paths, that of the "householder" and "homeless". When they get mixed up, they then to unify at the lower and lose of the higher alternative.

A person can cite and remember even all Dhamma by as a spoon does not recognize the taste of the soup, wouldn't see his own defilements, and therefore commentars and pointing out, by stories seeming not relevant, the guidance of others, is very importand to make the taste accessible.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 03:15:07 PM by Johann »
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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2019, 03:57:25 PM »
Dear Bhante,
Thanks to Bhante for not being too troubled about my use of Wisdom Publications generous public donation of their sutta translations.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

To add: the source of the sutta, owner Buddhist Publication Society: the current trading monk, ( Nyanatusita Bhikkhu ) isn't pleased to see Dhamma-Dana and share for the Sangha, as personally approached and asked and it's strongly to doubt whether obo.genaud actually had asked, went beyound common, and pleasing to the Noble Ones. Their shares for commons are simply a market and honor pressured gifts, likewise the speech of Noble Ones and that of smart trader are often very similar, abstaining from both, praise and blame, but the first out of avoiding accumulations and the secound for gain.

May Bhante not blame BPS translators. Wisdom Publications own the copyrights and authorization for what translations get donated. I can give Bhante information about the Wisdom Publication Copyright contact person if Bhante would like to ask the real owners about donating more of their translations than what is currently available in the Public Domain for use by monastics.

And taking of what isn't given, even if stolen, even if "back", is still taking what isn't given and not Noble, as well. Relays on wrong view, rights, and demanding.

But Bhante, the bhikkhu sangha are the owners, custodians and preservers of the dhammavinaya in any language. So I wonder why Bhante thinks translations that have been donated to the general public and recognised as such by the world, cannot be used by monastics. I cannot think of a more deserving group to make use of such public donations than monastics if used properly without violating the terms of the corresponding Public Domain license. Isn't Bhante's views and opinions on proper use of Public Domain translations by monastics overshooting what is considered to be proper usage in the world?

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2019, 04:12:10 PM »
It's voluntary to change relation, Nyom.

Common related and Public Domain related, isn't the Noble Domain. And no interest in getting involved in culture thieving, the heritage, of the Sangha. Not to speak that putting things under this common domains requires approve to be used also for bad things, aside of approve of akusala. No comment on directly trade and livelihood on it.

It's also not proper to approach householers and ask (not to speak of use not really given). Also this ways have been pointed out in practical ways, that assumings are total different as real approaches.

So my Nyom leave the householders ways in their range and good to not participate and approve the pulling of heritage of the Noble Ones into this range, not encourage, not to speak from doing, if after long term wellfare, let it be their merits and demerits, as they wish, of what counts for Nyom as well.

There is a case where social almsgiving [food in the derived case] (of which isn't public domain actually either) for the poor can be used by monks, but only in special cases and no more then two times.

It's not without reason that my person says, Nyom is certain not related but to a good amount in relation with corrupters of families and marxists, pseudo-liberal, not fearing to take of what is not given, common householders, villagers, making a living on sozial work and favor, approve of lower...

May Nyom join the rebel group at suttacentral or commerial shareplaces, their they aren't that conservative, and do not fear misconduct, villagers ways are high regarded there and encouraged to follow in taking and giving what isn't given. There they follow the aim to cut all down to the lowest equal for harmonious consume and trades in the world.

And just to inform forther: telling a monk: "go and ask" or thinking "if he desires, needs, he can do as well as we common do" isn't really of much merits in all circumstances. Does Nyom think that those near or in the Noble Domain desire of what "householders" hold on, and go after it?

May Nyom go out, and let go of taking on trust on assuming that given without knowing, and try to ask for the Sanghas use without bonds to Common and Public domains, to find out for himself. Seeing the requirement, and if only purified on one side, would be of great merits, if rightly obtained is given into sublime field. It might be that in case of public, he wouldn't easy find the owner to ask, as already death. And in the other cases he might see that even a copy of what commonhouseholders hold, will be hardly obtained without backpulling strings.

Rare, very rare, is generosity with purification involved, beyond common trade, the more rare is purifying exchange of goodness of Dhamma. And soon no more present in this world, as it currently look like.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 04:47:13 PM by Johann »
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Offline saddhamma

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2019, 05:29:59 PM »
There is a case where social almsgiving [food in the derived case] (of which isn't public domain actually either) for the poor can be used by monks, but only in special cases and no more then two times.
Perhaps Bhante may have forgotten about other cases in the suttas and vinaya of given in the public domain, where monks and householders alike freely made use. One example in the vinayapitaka is the woodland grove where the Buddha met the group of thirty friends of high standing who were amusing themselves in the grove with their wives, while the Buddha was meditating in that same woodland grove. Surely there must have been similar public donations of groves by kings or generous land owners that monastics and householders alike made use of. Another case is the public donation of resthouses for travelers, both monastics and householders (see the background story involving Venerable Anuruddha on the rule about sleeping in the same place with a woman).

And just to inform forther: telling a monk: "go and ask" or thinking "if he desires, needs, he can do as well as we common do" isn't really of much merits in all circumstances. Does Nyom think that those near or in the Noble Domain desire of what "householders" hold on, and go after it?

May Bhante forgive me if my offer to provide Bhante contact information was offensive. Bhante mentioned that Bhante already asked BPS. I was just pointing out to Bhante that BPS are the wrong owners to ask, and only wished to point Bhante to the right owners if Bhante was still interested in asking.

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Re: Relay on what and whom?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2019, 05:49:30 PM »
Things are often not well considered, and very cherry picked, looking after the "go's" before the "don'ts", but with the objection to gain desired, defend a stand and not to act in ways of Noble.

Also the very practical and live seeing and understanding of homeless life can not easy be known if dwelling in and using householder domain.

May Nyom do and undertake of what seems good and right in his relations, best in line with Dhamma, and no need to feel burdened by other relations circumstances. They might not relay on common assumed rights, but on given.
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