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2019 Dec 14 10:57:23
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2019 Dec 14 08:57:33
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2019 Dec 14 07:04:00
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2019 Dec 14 05:19:58
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2019 Dec 11 11:31:42
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2019 Dec 11 10:32:13
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2019 Nov 27 10:20:04
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2019 Nov 27 10:16:58
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2019 Nov 22 20:01:23
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2019 Nov 22 19:49:34
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2019 Nov 22 19:47:27
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2019 Nov 22 19:40:12
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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?  (Read 805 times)

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Offline Johann

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Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« on: November 21, 2019, 05:41:34 PM »
 _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Veneravle Members of the Sangha,
Venerable fellows,

Upasaka, Upasika,
Buddhaparisada,

Dear interrested,

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Having come across the question and pointing out a questionable statement "sotapanna is free from remorse", by Nyom Moritz , on different place, my person thought to comment on this here.

Only an Arahat is free from remorse in both ways, having done the task, nothing further, and because of pure virtue.

A sotapanna, how ever, does no more struggle with the hindrance of remorse (strong restless) like a worldling, seeks for quick pardon and correction of mistakes, has no doubt of what is kusala and akusala and is also able to lift himself out of a transgression. Wrong actions if done, are never considered or promted, deluberate, but can happen in times of lack of awareness.

While a ordinary person would in any case need to confess a fault to a transgression free person (with not the same transgression not corrected = in the same whole), a Noble One is capable to lift himself out of transgression, is able to get ride and abound remorse and progress.

If saying "free from dependency to overcome remorse", such would be valid.

No remorse would be in that far a hindrance since one would lack of effort in two ways: to stay without fault and to progress on the path.

Something a Sota also has gained is freedom from wrong remorse, since capable to see a transgression and already total lack of shame and remorse of doing good, kusala.

So if saying "free of remorse in regard of good done", also such would be valid.

A Streamwinner therefore may seem as shameless and "mercyless" for others who are not capable to distinguish right from wrong correct.

Remorse in a refined sense causing restlessness, uddhacca, how ever, remain till Arahatship, since the work isn't done yet. Because the tasks isn't done, still things to work off, similar but refined quality arises in times not focus on merits, kusala, on the path.

This, for example, urges stronger and stronger, toward holly life, to an extent where restlessness caused in lower live presses one out of it. One can say here that it is an increase of remorse not after path and fruits but busy with ordinay things.

This kind of remorse, better restlessness, can be quite budensome for one still caught in two modes of livelihood or when alternative ways aren't accessible. The restless search for going forth and gain proper ordination is one sample of restlessness (remorse) Sotapannas, if not ordained and far off of possibilities, possible struggle, or when not finding alternative livelihood which does not require deliberately transgressions.

May it be of help to release from douts in this regard if having doubts in this area.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:07:11 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 08:41:35 PM »
Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Moritz

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2019, 07:15:00 AM »
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Kana had asked , having come across this statement (that a sotapanna is free from the hindrance (nīvaraṇa) of remorse) by Venerable Dhammanando on DhammaWheel.
Bhante Dhammanando took time to point to the Pali source (Uragasuttavaṇṇanā in Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā) of the statement and provide translations of relevant passages.
Kana could not find a reasoned explanation in these passages, just simply these statements as they are, so was already intending to ask the same question here as well.

Bhante's explanation is very helpful, giving reason, leaving kana wondering and pondering a bit, helping to make sense by thinking for myself.

Still having some doubts, but not practically important. Thank you very much, Bhante, for giving practical direction of thought.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 10:51:50 AM »
Nyom Moritz ,

it's actually a little bit similar like sakkāyadiṭṭhi, and māna (sakkayaditti vs. mana ), or macchariya  and lobha (Gier vs. Geiz ).

The Sekha has abound strive after group identification and means for it, yet using given for the strive after total release, seeking after "singleness" unrelated, still using, relaying on conceit as means (mana). Similar with remorse and it's drive.

While one still is subject to the vey essence of these qualities, the first step, also falling into situation, taking still on, and does no more grasphold on it. One may take on things, but wouldn't sacrifice much to hold on them.

There is no more desire to maintain a certain stand, group, identification. And the tendency isn't any more a turn around, but one forwardly.

One could also say that a ordinary person struggles with both relations, past and future, while the Sekha struggle very less with the past but still with the future. Not holding on possible taken on beauty, esteem, he isn't stingy o let go of it and so easier gets release, knowing that it is not the essence.

The Sekha has still a task to do and if hindered, does not walk toward it, feels remorse, become restless.

That's why it is still good for the Sekha to approach his Nissaya (which can be also in reflective way, knowing the path, if not in formal relation) to understand how and what to abound, askes for leave. Good Nissaya give leave and encouragements toward release, while giving advices how to get leave from past relaying. Bad give leave toward bonds in lower relation.

So remorse of the common person comes from the many relations around the five string to be not cut off. Remorse, restlessness in worldly regards, of the Sekha comes from obligation to finish the task, to rest still in a home, from parttake on things indebting in the world.

Having taken on form with the eye, delighting on it, develop a stand on it, he falls into transgression. ...sound... ...smell... idea... yet he usually hurts only himself.

Confessing of a Sekha is therefore one only in regard of the tripple Gems, his refuge and good relation toward tota independency.

Maybe Nyom remembers the Dhammapada story of the former beggar who used to go back to the place where he abounded his old things, old life, he had put on a tree, as soon as douts, remorse arose with the holly life. No more doing so, the fellows thought he had abound the training but the Buddha explained them that he already became an Asekha.

Yet still even the Arahat, to give sample of what is good, are encouraged, hold on the "ritual" of the Uposatha which has the function to remove reasons for restlessness/remorse.

As long as thinking to return, desire certain things, there will be restlessness and remorse to maintain the relation. The underlying desire of the common person and a Noble One are of different kind.

Only if there is no more dependency in all regards, only if all relations are abound, is there santi sukha, Khema, full abound of all limits.

To approach the commentary:

"The abandoning of the hindrances of doubt and the regret “I did not do what is wholesome” occurs by the first path." is valid in regard of past and gross, but yet not perfect, not arrived, not valid in regard of still remauning bonds and not in regard of "I do what is wholesome, as a pathelement, all the time. Yet knowing the path of release, he is able to lift him out by himself to progress when getting aware of restlessness. "Easy he attains the purifying Anussatis", having already once done the wholesome of which is element of the path and know already the Khema, security in the home/standless.

Therefore, if the source of Bhante Dhammanando cited

"Maggapaṭipāṭiyā pana kukkuccanīvaraṇassa vicikicchānīvaraṇassa ca paṭhamamaggena pahānaṃ hoti, the abandoning of the hindrances of regret and doubt occurs by the first path


is correct cited from the source, it's better to abound this commentar as not real correct proved against known, and relay (as other source behind my persons come to mind) possible on this list , given in relation by Ven. Nyanadassana , that kukkucca is reasonable, in relation to no need of remorse in regard of effort, be abounded by the Anāgāmi, no more bonds in the Sensual world, abound lazyness. Yet there is still unease present for the No-returner, still relaying on a host, even if very refined, but bound to end with no more need to return to any village and maintain relations there.

So in regard of taking restlessness and remorse as a prove whether on has atrained stream or not, it's good to relay in the way like explained here, since the different approach has a very danger in two ways: overestimate and rejecting of the three governing principles (-> highway to hell) for the worldling, and wrong remorse in regard the tasks already done, slowing unnecessary progress for a Noble One.

Sure there are also cases like that of Ven. Channa, but the tree bends it down by itself, as long attained stream, even if incapable to be guided by fellows.

The Tree Pulls Itself Down

Craving and desire lead us to suffering. But if we contemplate, our contemplation leans out from craving. It contemplates craving, and it pulls on the craving, shakes it up, so that it goes away or lessens on its own.

It's like a tree. Does anyone tell it what to do? Does anyone give it hints? You can't tell it what to do. You can't make it do anything. But it leans over and pulls itself down. When you look at things in this way, that's Dhamma.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Cetana Sutta: An Act of Will

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."

Sīlavato bhikkhave sīlasamapannassa na cetanāya karaṇīyaṃ 'avippaṭisāro me uppajjatū'ti. Dhammatā kho esā bhikkhave yaṃ sīlavato sīlasampannassa avippaṭisāro uppajjati.
 
Avippaṭisārissa1 bhikkhave na cetanāya karaṇīyaṃ 'pāmojjaṃ me uppajjatū'ti. Dhammatā esā bhikkhave yaṃ avippaṭisārissa[1] pāmojjaṃ uppajjati. ...
 1. Avippaṭisārassa machasaṃ, No-wrongway-bond-lorded/slave. Release given/bond.

It's possible caused by "unskillful", illustrating, translation, understanding of Avippaṭisāra "absence of regret or remorse", and illustrator often use the common opposite words, wishing to give their beloved way and favor. "Not on wrong path clinging", "not bond to pay back and able to move on (there where still debts, work)", or "no more slave of Mara (yet still driven toward Real machasa, taking machasa, lord, in account), would do a better here, like averena isn't good translated as kindness of love.

So that may excuse also the former commentar compiler's "missuse" of "having abound the fetter of kukkucca already by enter stream. If so, no efforts would be done and required one having gained path. But the non-return is only domain of the Non-returner, and total freedom only that of the Arahat.

The possessor of the first path is no more able to conduct in ways falling of of it, no more bond to remorse found in the low realms, yet he is still a thief by still parttaking on sensuality, even if not causing gross, direct, intended harm in own next and down ward relations. This thieving in the sensual realms and reason for restlessness, disappears only for the Anagami and even he feeds off mind, yet no more to return even there once Arahat is attained.

Ingratitude (wrong view) is the mother of all kings of stinginess but also of giving for the sake of holding, maintaining a stand, or holding back something to be able to keep ones stand/home.

mudita
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 12:42:57 PM by Johann »
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Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2019, 11:33:47 AM »

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

...“There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person … falls into fear over what is not grounds for fear. There is fear for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person [who thinks], 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me.' But an instructed disciple of the noble ones does not fall into fear over what is not grounds for fear. There is no fear for an instructed disciple of the noble ones [who thinks], 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me.'

“Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

[the following similar with the six senses and objects of them, possible easier to grasp]

“Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), established on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

“Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), established on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

“Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), established on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

“Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of form …

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling …

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception …

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications …

“If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it stands still. Owing to its stillness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

“For one knowing in this way, seeing in this way, monk, there is the immediate ending of fermentations.”
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Offline Moritz

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 06:07:20 PM »
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Thank you, Bhante, for this detailed further explanation. I would like to come back to it later.

Having mentioned "remaining doubts, but nothing practical" yesterday I had put more words into it, leading to some (more theoretical) follow-up questions, but then thought "This is not much of practical use. More practical is to know what is wholesome and what is unwholesome and try to act according to it."

Bhante's explanation is very satisfying to me.
Here is what I had written down yesterday, concerning the more practical:
Quote from: Moritz
Thinking about it: although knowing clearly what is kusala and akusala, it could be that past done strong akusala could be a long term cause for re-occuring remorse, enough to be a hindrance, indirectly, by being pulled away from developing tranquility and insight on account of "collateral" consequences of that past strong akusala that one can still trace.
So although not being remorseful directly about "that thing done far in the past", knowing that it would be useless, cannot be changed anymore, one might still be able to trace it back, seeing: this (bad action done by me in the past) was an indirect strong contributing cause of this bad state of affairs now. But one would feel remorseful only about what could be immediately done about it but is not being done at the moment, so being prompted to do what can be done now.

This is how I understand the explained and can agree with it.

The more "impractical" theoretical doubt is about the (often discussed on internet forums, but not for me finally resolved) question what a sotapanna can and cannot possibly still do (in unwholesome deeds).

* Moritz: note in advance: The following seems to be of less practical use, but more theoretical. The reason I had not shared it yesterday was because I thought it might be tiring and straining to read and answer, without being much of actual use.
So may it be considered as not pressing or important to read further from here, but just a curiosity, and I would already put my thoughts away from it for now, having much more practical things to do. Although of course interested in any possible definite answer when coming back to it later. _/\_

More specifically:
Quote
Wrong actions if done, are never considered or promted, deluberate, but can happen in times of lack of awareness.
It makes me wonder: Could a sotapanna never deliberately kill a moscito?
What would count as (an "excuse" of) "lack of awareness"? Is a short outburst of anger in which one intentionally kills a living being (for example a moscito) the kind of "lack of awareness" which could still happen to a sotapanna?

To summarize the ever-repeated discussion about this on the internet seen before, I have always seen it lead to disagreement between two opposing viewpoints, derived from suttas by different reasoning:

viewpoint a)
Quote from: viewpoint a)
The sotapanna is, according to statements in the suttas,

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"endowed with the virtues that are appealing to the noble ones; untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration."
This means, the sotapanna's virtue is perfect. He would at least never deliberately break any of the five precepts.

viewpoint b)
Quote from: viewpoint b)
There is a sutta, which lists a number of things that an arahat categorically cannot do. I don't know which sutta now, so will try to recollect from memory:
  • kill a living being
  • take what is not given
  • tell a deliberate lie
  • engage in sexual intercourse
  • store food like a householder
  • ... (maybe some others, and maybe some of the above are slightly different, but quite similar)

There is also a sutta, which lists a number of things that a sotapanna categorically cannot do. Again, I don't know which sutta, so will try to recollect from memory:
  • kill his/her mother
  • kill his/her father
  • kill an arahat
  • wound a Buddha
  • cause a schism in the Sangha
  • accept anyone else than the Buddha as his/her foremost teacher
If a sotapanna would not be able to kill any living being, the list would state in one single point that a sotapanna cannot kill any living being. Instead it states in three points only three specific instances of killing: of mother, father, or an arahat.
Therefore, it seems, a sotapanna would still be able to intentionally kill some living beings.

I tended to agree with viewpoint b. I am still in some doubt about this.

Now yesterday, when looking for sources, I came upon this, which looks interesting to me: a long post on DhammaWheel by Bhante Dhammanando , where he discusses "virtues dear to the noble ones", giving a verbose explanation of his own understanding, with many references to the Pali.
I have not looked at it in detail, just leaving it as a reference to possibly investigate later.
It seems Bhante Dhammanando agrees more with viewpoint a than viewpoint b.
I remember also Upasaka Vorapol agreeing with viewpoint a, not viewpoint b.

Would Bhante more agree with viewpoint a, or viewpoint b, or maybe neither? Not really important, but just wondering how one could possibly pin it down. (Still would have to read how Bhante Dhammanando pinned it down as well)
Maybe not really practical/helpful to pin it down.

Thanks again, Bhante, for your very helpful answers. And may Bhante not see it as an important matter to answer the more theoretical.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_


* Moritz now trying to focus on setting up new server for sangham.net, hoping to be able to coordinate everything in time, already intended for some days to open a forum topic about it to inform, along with some possible questions still to consider, which might be helpfully answered or commented on by others knowledgeable in IT stuff.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 06:18:11 PM by Moritz »

Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 07:42:17 PM »
In short, to some thing of ideas counted, Nyom Moritz :

Quote from: Upasika Moritz thought
Thinking about it: although knowing clearly what is kusala and akusala, it could be that past done strong akusala could be a long term cause for re-occuring remorse, enough to be a hindrance, indirectly, by being pulled away from developing tranquility and insight on account of "collateral" consequences of that past strong akusala that one can still trace.
So although not being remorseful directly about "that thing done far in the past", knowing that it would be useless, cannot be changed anymore, one might still be able to trace it back, seeing: this (bad action done by me in the past) was an indirect strong contributing cause of this bad state of affairs now. But one would feel remorseful only about what could be immediately done about it but is not being done at the moment, so being prompted to do what can be done now.

This is how I understand the explained and can agree with it.

That's the wrong teaching, notiins of them, way of thinking, of the Jain, which the Buddha always rebuked speaking on kamma and it's end, best explained also in regard of psychology in: Sankha Sutta: The Conch Trumpet

Quote from: Upasaka
It makes me wonder: Could a sotapanna never deliberately kill a moscito?
What would count as (an "excuse" of) "lack of awareness"? Is a short outburst of anger in which one intentionally kills a living being (for example a moscito) the kind of "lack of awareness" which could still happen to a sotapanna?

Only in a sphere called "im Affekt" if the different notion in common laws is of help, or as a reflex. Not really in ways of planning, focusing, awaiting chance, deliberatly with considered objective. Why? Because knowing that form, feeling... isn't worthy the fight and hurt. "Die thieve of me/mine!" would be very hard to go after for a sotapanna, arrived at gratitude, non-stingyness. Habitual ways, not aware of "living being", worthy, also such could he conduct.

An act of killing, in lack of awarness, in a stress situation, if conducted, he would not hide, quickly see the fault and go on in ways which release him from remorse: "able to lift himself out of a transression".

On the disagreement between two opposing viewpoints:

To a): The virtue of a Sotaanna isn't perfect, but he is possessed of virtue (pleasing to the noble ones) an the worldling just trains them, not aware of mind-qualities but on reasonings (outwardly rituals). Only an Araht has perfect Virtue, free of any intentional conducted harm. The talk given to Nyom Danilo might help here: Perfect virtue .

To b): Atma added to the list conditions, in regard of Sotapanna

Underlined is addition for Sotapanna to the "not possible of an Arahat":

- kill a living being, deliberatly, promted
- take what is not given, deliberatly, promted
- tell a deliberate lie
- engage in sexual intercourse, that is not allowable (illicitly) (Just think on Upasika Visaka)
- store food like a common householder, stingy, even hidden (there would be no Noble layman, if. A sotapanna has no more that focus like a common householder: openhanded, welcoming requests, giving more then adked for)

As for the secound list and the turn-arround-logic: This mentioned logic can be used in other directions as well and come to the conclusion that a Sotapanna has no problems to act like everybody, 95% of humans, who would straight say to be not capable to do the 6 thing either. So it's not useful. This list is thought as a warning: "You are still capable to kill your mother with your wrong, communist view! You are still...." and they did in large in the past, even in buddhist lands.

Some additions to the meaning of the Sixer-set:

- kill his/her mother (known supporter, giver of live, existance, what ever Brahma, requiring ingratitude and deny of being given.)
- kill his/her father (known supporter, giver of live, existance, what ever Brahma -"-)
- kill an arahat (a Saint, possible if perceiving harmlessness and support as worthless and harmful)
- wound a Buddha (harming the position of real liberty)
- cause a schism in the Sangha (for gain or ill-will)
- holding on wrong grave view (deny kamma, cause and effects, ...)

So if wishing to apply this list for a sotapannas view, good to remind that he is clear about past parents and relations with all beings, of Noble Ones, of Buddha and Sangha as well, not to speak of Dhamma, in regard of views.

Maybe people in the times of the Buddha have been more in circumstances where killing appears, aware of out of palace. That might be the reason why many underestimate the six grave wrong-doings and still able to.

Having still potential does not mean to be right now in the area of conditions arise where such grave deeds would be conducted, but they could appear in the next minutes. And this is the psychology behind the list of grave wrongdoings. Common ways of "villagers", incl. not killing parents, Arahats... aren't yet what is counted by "pleasing to Noble Ones". A Noble Person hardly stays near people, gives any sign of approve, if used to kill even insects and take what isn't given without shame, proper trade.

Like always, but Nyom already knows that, saying "no need to go after theoretical/philosophy", that wrong grasped, for defending a stand, win a battle of dispute, things are fast taken out of context and after searching ways to justify wrong.

Position a) is therfore the safe bet, also in regard of danger of lazyness and overestimating ones attainment. So is it with the matter remorse of the OP here as well.

Much joy with your good undertakings as well and always Sila first for what ever receiver of the gross of them

Mudita with dwelling and walking remorseless toward past, left behind.

* Johann : btw, Atma thinks he had never to space to invite Bhante Dhammananda or to give personally access. Maybe Nyom likes to try to do such, whether then taken on and make use or not.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 07:55:34 PM by Johann »
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Offline Moritz

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 11:39:55 PM »
Thank you, Bhante, for still further explaining. _/\_

Just a quick in between:

Quote from:
Quote from: Upasika Moritz thought
Thinking about it: although knowing clearly what is kusala and akusala, it could be that past done strong akusala could be a long term cause for re-occuring remorse, enough to be a hindrance, indirectly, by being pulled away from developing tranquility and insight on account of "collateral" consequences of that past strong akusala that one can still trace.
So although not being remorseful directly about "that thing done far in the past", knowing that it would be useless, cannot be changed anymore, one might still be able to trace it back, seeing: this (bad action done by me in the past) was an indirect strong contributing cause of this bad state of affairs now. But one would feel remorseful only about what could be immediately done about it but is not being done at the moment, so being prompted to do what can be done now.

This is how I understand the explained and can agree with it.

That's the wrong teaching, notiins of them, way of thinking, of the Jain, which the Buddha always rebuked speaking on kamma and it's end, best explained also in regard of psychology in: Sankha Sutta: The Conch Trumpet

I do not understand what exactly Bhante sees as wrong with my thoughts expressed above, how it is equal to the (caricature of) way of thinking of the Jains, as expressed in the sutta.
Maybe I misunderstood something. Or maybe not written so understandable.

I thought, my thoughts were actually in line with this line of thought from the same sutta:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

”[He reflects:] 'The Blessed One in a variety of ways criticizes & censures stealing… indulging in illicit sex… the telling of lies, and says, “Abstain from the telling of lies.” There are lies that I have told, to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone.' So, reflecting thus, he abandons right then the telling of lies, and in the future refrains from telling lies. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed.
Trying to formulate my thoughts in a different way: Remembering bad things done in the past, seeing maybe still consequences appearing indirectly, one does not dwell on remorse for the bad deed done in the past, because nothing can be done about it now. Instead, the only remorse would be about what is to be done here and now and what is (yet) not being done here and now. So one is quickly prompted to do what is to be done here and now.

Is this not correct?



Regarding the question "sotapanna can/cannot kill/steal/lie etc. deliberately": Bhante's explanations make some sense to me.

However the "grey area" of "deliberatly, promted" leaves some room for doubt.
By the way, maybe Bhante is confusing "prompted" with "unprompted"? "Prompted" would be "indirect", "pushed to do so by others", or even (arguably) "in affect".
I have doubts about "in affect", or even "prompted, pushed by others". It seems to me, whether prompted or not, whether in much stress and "itched" to do so or not, this would make no difference in it being "deliberate", done with own volition.
So I remain in some doubt. Thank you, in any case, for taking so much time to explain. As mentioned, it seems of not so much practical importance.

* Moritz now hurrying away to work

I am going to try to invite Bhante Dhammanando over to this place here. Not sure if I had already done so in the past. I think I had at least thought about, wanted to do so.[/url]

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2019, 06:51:05 AM »
Thank you, Bhante, for still further explaining. _/\_

Just a quick in between:

Quote from:
Quote from: Upasika Moritz thought
Thinking about it: although knowing clearly what is kusala and akusala, it could be that past done strong akusala could be a long term cause for re-occuring remorse, enough to be a hindrance, indirectly, by being pulled away from developing tranquility and insight on account of "collateral" consequences of that past strong akusala that one can still trace.
So although not being remorseful directly about "that thing done far in the past", knowing that it would be useless, cannot be changed anymore, one might still be able to trace it back, seeing: this (bad action done by me in the past) was an indirect strong contributing cause of this bad state of affairs now. But one would feel remorseful only about what could be immediately done about it but is not being done at the moment, so being prompted to do what can be done now.

This is how I understand the explained and can agree with it.

That's the wrong teaching, notiins of them, way of thinking, of the Jain, which the Buddha always rebuked speaking on kamma and it's end, best explained also in regard of psychology in: Sankha Sutta: The Conch Trumpet

I do not understand what exactly Bhante sees as wrong with my thoughts expressed above, how it is equal to the (caricature of) way of thinking of the Jains, as expressed in the sutta.
Maybe I misunderstood something. Or maybe not written so understandable.

I thought, my thoughts were actually in line with this line of thought from the same sutta:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

”[He reflects:] 'The Blessed One in a variety of ways criticizes & censures stealing… indulging in illicit sex… the telling of lies, and says, “Abstain from the telling of lies.” There are lies that I have told, to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone.' So, reflecting thus, he abandons right then the telling of lies, and in the future refrains from telling lies. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed.
Trying to formulate my thoughts in a different way: Remembering bad things done in the past, seeing maybe still consequences appearing indirectly, one does not dwell on remorse for the bad deed done in the past, because nothing can be done about it now. Instead, the only remorse would be about what is to be done here and now and what is (yet) not being done here and now. So one is quickly prompted to do what is to be done here and now.

Is this not correct?
Yes, in regard of strong akusala. In regard of sense-pleasures, remorse remains, as not abound. In regard of maybe certain speech, as well, as not perfect... And in regard of what has to be done, in relation with present. Restlessness.
Past bad things are abound and also no extrem troubles to bear riping results.
Furthermore, results from action, good or bad, ripe very fast, meaning if doing wrong, fast and much more clear the effects are traced.

Quote from: Upasaka Moritz
Regarding the question "sotapanna can/cannot kill/steal/lie etc. deliberately": Bhante's explanations make some sense to me.

However the "grey area" of "deliberatly, promted" leaves some room for doubt.
By the way, maybe Bhante is confusing "prompted" with "unprompted"? "Prompted" would be "indirect", "pushed to do so by others", or even (arguably) "in affect".
I have doubts about "in affect", or even "prompted, pushed by others". It seems to me, whether prompted or not, whether in much stress and "itched" to do so or not, this would make no difference in it being "deliberate", done with own volition.
So I remain in some doubt. Thank you, in any case, for taking so much time to explain. As mentioned, it seems of not so much practical importance.
It's in the sphere of Abhidhamma and Vipassana, this investigation of qualities of actions and very practical in this regard, reflecting.
Unprompted, "in affect" may still happen, in times of stress and lack of awarness. (Amounts of all ill-will, dosa, are abound by Non-returner => vyāpāda, kukkucca; uddhacca remains as in relation of indirect harming, fine bond to world and open task). But not prompted, with firm resolve, with a long stream of akusala thoughts or even detail planning. If such had been done, he knows quickly "wrong", and remorse from it is also quick abound by lifting out the hole, confession, reminding resolve, doubtless.

Quote from: Upasika Moritz
* Moritz now hurrying away to work

I am going to try to invite Bhante Dhammanando over to this place here. Not sure if I had already done so in the past. I think I had at least thought about, wanted to do so.[/url]
mudita, and "slowly", step by step.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 07:06:30 AM by Johann »
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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2019, 04:30:07 PM »
And in how far could it be said that the Noble disciple is "free of caught up in remorse (doubt)"? He knows how to escape from the "bond to wrong path", while the ordinary person does not or takes the wrong in denying the fault:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

‘‘Sutavā ca kho, bhikkhu, ariyasāvako vippaṭisāraṃ pajānāti, vippaṭisārasamudayaṃ pajānāti, vippaṭisāranirodhaṃ pajānāti , vippaṭisāranirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ pajānāti. Tassa so vippaṭisāro nirujjhati, so parimuccati jātiyā…pe… dukkhasmāti vadāmi. Evaṃ jānaṃ kho, bhikkhu, sutavā ariyasāvako evaṃ passaṃ ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na byākaroti…pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na byākaroti.

Bhikkhu, the not learned ordinary man, does not know remorse the arising of remorse, the cessation of remorse and does not know the path to the cessation of remorse. His remorse develops and he is not released from birth, decay, death, grief, lament unpleasantness displeasure and distress. I say he is not released from unpleasantness.
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Offline Moritz

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2019, 11:51:02 AM »
Sadhu, Bhante, for pointing out. _/\_

Just noticed now.

Ven. Thanissaro commented in a footnote to his translation of that sutta, about the use of the word vippaṭisāra
*  The dictionary link does not seem to contain a definition of that word yet; the longest part of the page is an inclusion of all words starting with "v" from Master Varado's illustrated glossary of Pāḷi terms.
"Anguish" here translates vippatisara, which is usually rendered into English as "remorse" or "regret." Here, however, the feeling of vippatisara relates to concerns about the future, rather than the past, and so neither remorse nor regret are appropriate to the context. The anguish alluded to in this passage is based either on the fear that Awakening would entail an end to existence or on the contrary fear that it wouldn't.

Just for reference.

After my questions on DhammaWheel, DootDoot had pointed out that same word to me:
Quote from: DootDoot via PM, on Nov. 20
http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than_en.html#iti-030

:smile:

Also

Here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice absorption, mendicants! Don’t be negligent! Don’t regret it later! This is my instruction to you.”

Etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. Jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchā vippaṭisārino ahuvattha. Ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.

sn43.11/en/sujato

to which I replied:
Quote from: perkele/Moritz in reply to Master Doot on Nov 20
Sadhu! Thanks for sharing. :anjali:

Maybe kukkucca/remorse means something more special than vippaṭisārino/regret (whatever grammatical form of whatever that is)? I have no understanding of Pali.

Might be worth to bring that up later in the thread. For now, I am just hoping for Bhante Dhammanando's clarification of the sotapanna having abandoned kukkucca.

Going to sleep now. :zzz:

Just for reference, but I have no interesting thoughts about it in relation to my original questions.

*  I believe Master Doot's friendly message was perhaps mainly intended to distract me from potential angry thoughts (after some argument I had had with retrofuturist/Paul), helping to avoid causes for later vippaṭisāra.

_/\_

* Johann : some links replaced
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:51:27 AM by Johann »

Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2019, 01:49:34 PM »
[Comment later removed]

Mudita, that Nyom Moritz could find an explaining from Bhante Thanissaro. 

Quote from: at the beginn here
There is no more desire to maintain a certain stand, group, identification. And the tendency isn't any more a turn around, but one forwardly.

One could also say that a ordinary person struggles with both relations, past and future, while the Sekha struggle very less with the past but still with the future. Not holding on possible taken on beauty, esteem, he isn't stingy o let go of it and so easier gets release, knowing that it is not the essence.

The Sekha has still a task to do and if hindered, does not walk toward it, feels remorse, become restless.

It's not possible that scholars could explain parts which requires further explainings. So better then to approach a scholar is one who mastered Jhana, bester then this a Sotapanna... Arahat.

* Johann : Atma often links word, but not all work has been done. Althought content would be given. It's often for later generations or if some feel inspired to give into. Currently no currency changer since some weeks to work on on IGPT.

As just in the middle of reorganizing, the word is found under "k": kukkucca#vippaṭisāraṁ and should now be reachable, changing reference manual: vippaṭisāraṁ.

Those aspects, althought good visible by the illustrations, are maybe worthy to consider, if Grandfather Varado likes to take it in account, possible able to see for himself the differences of remorse and "remorse" of a Sekha.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:53:32 AM by Johann »
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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2019, 03:13:22 PM »
Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

* Johann : Atma often links word, but not all work has been done. Althought content would be given. It's often for later generations or if some feel inspired to give into. Currently no currency changer since some weeks to work on on IGPT.

As just in the middle of reorganizing, the word is found under "k": kukkucca#vippaṭisāraṁ and should now be reachable, changing reference manual: vippaṭisāraṁ.

Sadhu _/\_

Mudita, that Nyom Moritz could find an explaining from Bhante Thanissaro. 

Quote from: at the beginn here
There is no more desire to maintain a certain stand, group, identification. And the tendency isn't any more a turn around, but one forwardly.

One could also say that a ordinary person struggles with both relations, past and future, while the Sekha struggle very less with the past but still with the future. Not holding on possible taken on beauty, esteem, he isn't stingy o let go of it and so easier gets release, knowing that it is not the essence.

The Sekha has still a task to do and if hindered, does not walk toward it, feels remorse, become restless.

Sadhu _/\_

* Moritz at the moment having problems in this area .

Offline Johann

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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2019, 03:47:51 PM »
That lightens as soon as secound path is attained, and stops with the third. That's why the Buddha encouraged his lay disciple, if still bond to lower life, to keep as much often the Uposatha and follow the Brahmacariya. It's simply more for ease, Nyom. Once, having gained right view already, one becomes "addicted" to Jhana as a "replacement-drug" remorse gets very sight and restlessness as well.

Once duties for worthy relations for living are done, may no one fear to look after oneself and give one really remorseless compensations. If it wouldn't be possible, the Sublime Buddha would'nt have encouraged toward it.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

...The Blessed One said to them, "Sakyans, do you observe the eight-factored uposatha?"

"Sometimes we do, lord, and sometimes we don't."

"It's no gain for you, Sakyans. It's ill-gotten, that in this life so endangered by grief, in this life so endangered by death, you sometimes observe the eight-factored uposatha and sometimes don't.

"What do you think, Sakyans. Suppose a man, by some profession or other, without encountering an unskillful day, were to earn a half-kahapana. Would he deserve to be called a capable man, full of initiative?"

"Yes, lord."...

Once the virtue is in that way purified, it's "easy" to gain the second path, yet still the third to be reached, gives needed suffering with remorse to go on further, step by step, in tune, as plants don't require be pulled but just look after water, dung and keep away dangers.

Mudita
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Re: Freedom from remorse for a sotapanna, for all Noble ones?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2019, 04:46:00 PM »
Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu Mudita _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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