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2020 Feb 19 12:31:58
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2020 Feb 18 09:12:06
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2020 Feb 18 09:10:31
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2020 Feb 15 22:31:22
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2020 Feb 12 23:36:22
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2020 Feb 10 18:34:34
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2020 Feb 10 15:06:07
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2020 Feb 10 15:05:31
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2020 Feb 09 21:43:05
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2020 Feb 09 19:11:06
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2020 Feb 08 22:38:59
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2020 Feb 08 17:21:10
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2020 Feb 08 06:18:20
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2020 Jan 31 10:22:34
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2020 Jan 30 05:03:27
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2020 Jan 30 02:39:50
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2020 Jan 29 20:10:42
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2020 Jan 28 13:04:10
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2020 Jan 28 12:12:48
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2020 Jan 26 12:06:21
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2020 Jan 25 23:25:33
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2020 Jan 24 09:58:40
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2020 Jan 24 08:29:47
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2020 Jan 24 08:20:39
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2020 Jan 24 07:05:21
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2020 Jan 23 21:53:22
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2020 Jan 23 21:46:43
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2020 Jan 23 21:25:30
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2020 Jan 23 11:48:02
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2020 Jan 22 13:30:29
Johann: May Sukha come to fulfillment, Nyom. It's well for now.

2020 Jan 22 09:39:03
Danilo: did Bhante's health get better?

2020 Jan 22 09:37:11
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2020 Jan 21 19:20:53
Johann: Meister Moritz

2020 Jan 21 19:01:10
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 21 13:09:02
Johann: Blind like ants are being believing in technic, scients and incapable to trace where and how effects take their cause.

2020 Jan 20 19:30:27
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 19 20:32:04
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Jan 19 20:29:34
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2020 Jan 19 15:01:46
Johann: some moved to topic here

2020 Jan 19 10:20:11
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2020 Jan 19 10:03:16
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2020 Jan 18 08:14:54
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2020 Jan 18 05:57:52
Johann: A blessed and fruitful Sila day

2020 Jan 17 19:19:18
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2020 Jan 17 18:37:01
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2020 Jan 17 18:14:15
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2020 Jan 17 13:39:36
Sophorn: Many greetings to everyone,

2020 Jan 17 13:39:19
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2020 Jan 17 10:29:19
Johann: "so, now I go up and clear the area a little, make some merits, and I will not share my merits, with anybody..."  ^-^

2020 Jan 17 08:49:11
Chanroth: ធ្វើអាស្រមហើយចេញពីរសេចក្ដីល្អ ធ្វើអ្វីដើម្បីខ្លួល្អជាង

2020 Jan 17 08:45:08
Chanroth: សូមលាហើយ

2020 Jan 17 08:33:16
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2020 Jan 17 06:56:27
Johann: A blessed and fruitful Uposatha, those observing it today.

2020 Jan 17 06:45:45
Johann: Nyom Moritz

2020 Jan 17 06:44:49
Moritz: Vandami Bhante _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 16 23:01:31
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2020 Jan 15 14:16:00
Cheav Villa:  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

2020 Jan 15 11:15:29
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2020 Jan 15 11:12:01
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2020 Jan 15 10:24:02
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2020 Jan 15 10:21:50
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2020 Jan 15 10:11:56
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2020 Jan 12 22:22:36
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2020 Jan 12 22:04:02
Moritz: _/\_

2020 Jan 12 21:34:30
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2020 Jan 12 21:31:02
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2020 Jan 12 21:27:15
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2020 Jan 12 21:26:54
Cheav Villa:  Kana Bhante _/\_ _/\_  _/\_

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Author Topic: Talking on bad sides and things of others good or bad?  (Read 1020 times)

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Online Johann

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Talking on bad sides and things of others good or bad?
« on: January 22, 2020, 07:18:54 PM »
Usually one is "told" to do not speak about other peoples fault, speaking about bad of others is bad.

Seldom does even the teacher sees his hypocritical approach while saying such in categorical way.

So when my person would be of the opinion that speaking about bad of others is bad, my person actually would by teaching such already break the taught.

And more over, 80% of the Suttas would be repeating of wrong speech, wouldn't it, if speaking about bad of other would be bad, generally.

Yet isn't obiviously a broad taught matter at large, especially in householder near relation. So just a certain tool to make unwished voices silent?

What's the point here to do not ever fail it?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 05:38:18 AM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2020, 12:35:55 AM »
For homeless meditators/ascetics/robe-wearers,

It is not a matter of good or bad. It is a matter of whether this action, this speech is right or wrong for speaker.

If speaker is not free from defilements, has not been established on Noble 8 Fold Path, is having ignorance or un-enlightened then speaking about 'seemingly bad of others' is exactly like 'pig scolding human for not wearing sleepers by seeing dirty feets'.
If person has removed defilements, has been established on Noble 8 Fold Path, completely aware, an enlightened one, a gem then pointing out faults of others would be benefecial only for that person who has atleast a little-bit of "SHRADDHA" towards righteousness otherwise it would be like "talking to a stone" or to be precise "tossing a stone above own head; calling an angry bull to smash you(where you are standing still in nude)".


For householders::

Yup! Pointing faults become necessary for maintaining "seemingly outside-peace in society".

Good Night uncle J,

(think again... making a sidebox for Q&A will decrease work for moderator!)

Metta.

Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 07:07:52 AM »
What could be the problem if "bad" is wrong assumed? And how about, because spoken in relations, when a householder criticises a monk and a monk pointson a householder, Nyom Alex, according to your views? What then did the Buddha taught in that relations?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 07:49:34 AM »
What could be the problem if "bad" is wrong assumed?

It would be exactly like, "how theravada was banned in Nepal",  "how adi-shankracharya completely disbandoned and MURDERED theravada from india" and "how adi-shankracharya adopted sexual-'tantrism/mantrism/yantrism' to be dhamma".

Quote
And how about, because spoken in relations, when a householder criticises a monk and a monk pointson a householder, Nyom Alex, according to your views?

Householder criticizing a monk because of "holding wrong views and monk is right" OR "holding right views and monk is wrong". In both cases, monk is not to be confused, worried, concerned about sayings. If householder is ready to listen, it can be sorted out by having a dhamma discussion at suitable time, at suitable place.

Still, monk must not make arguments because monkhood was taken only for removing own's defilements, for providing peaceful-vibrant-food(METTA) to all. Dhamma, if not today then later, will have to be rediscovered, re-realized and re-propagated by next genius scientist, gem, buddha OR by any other means.

Still, IF ASKED,  monk must preach dhamma(as far as experienced or learnt) only, by indirectly pointing out defaults in the tradition/practice(if any)..... but it might also lead to different views(just like how different schools emerged in buddhism). Alas! It's better to have only remain silent and if tradition-bounded, to have a common teaching discussed before-hand to be preached........ but it might lead to wrong teachings being preached like by hindu brahmins.

So, in my view and experience-- for monk-- better to eat once a day(if available/received), meditate full to heart, remain joyful, enthusiastic.

Good morning,
Will come-back later(might be tomorrow).....today is interview :), yesterday was a fraud company.

  :) :) Metta.

Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 09:31:44 AM »
So what does Nyom Alex think, would it be proper for Atma to talk further with Nyom, or not so proper, just let him tell what he desires to tell?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 03:00:00 PM »
Surely, not just talk rather guide Nyom Alex ^-^ , if he has offended.

Otherwise still, it's human rights to do whatever one wants(especially elders-in-age).


(overqualified today)
Be happy,

--someone.

Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 04:14:12 PM »
What should that be "human rights"? A free ticket, Nyom Alex? Surely clear that everybody acts as he/she wishes (and bears also the consequences of it) but no idea of what "human right" should be. No consequences? "Free speech": "Speak what you like: no bad effects for you"?
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Vivek

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 05:29:13 PM »
Being a small-fry, I can say that "householders of the so-called-human society have made some rules and regulations for 'what seems to them as right' flow of society" and to maintain that seemingly-right, various leaders have made various arrangements/laws within their territory to satisfy their ego.

Surely clear that everybody acts as he/she wishes (and bears also the consequences of it)
AND
Quote
"Free speech": "Speak what you like: no bad effects for you"?

These types of self-contradicting thoughts, "where in 1 thought, homeless-meditator tries to perceive right view and in 2nd thought, homeless-meditator perceives from the point-of-view/seeing-actions of wrong-dwellers", usually appear when a homeless-meditator thinks by relaxing his body, lying down either on grass or on plain-open-field.

Better, if there will be no further reaction in brain leading to some karma, better if thinker thinks next that, " whatever happens! Till now, experience and teachings say that •••1st thought•••", better if thinker doesn't think next that, "they must be punished, householders must make rules, more rules to stop wrong-dwellers.....".

From experience, I warn you, uncle J, when homeless-meditator starts thinking what shouldn't be thought, when homeless-meditator stops thinking what must have been thought, it starts chain-reaction of hatred, a deep chain-reaction of 'THE-REACTION'. It will never stop and will make homeless-meditator more LAZY(pramaadi), more aggressive,••• more defilements.

It's better if you stop 2nd thought, it won't suit you-- a homeless meditator.

(Stopped playing hide&seek of ≈15 days.)
Be Happy,
🙂

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 05:40:04 PM »
You should get in touch with each other.

Best wishes for Nyoms Vivek next hide&seek. May the hidden be found and release gained.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2020, 01:50:39 AM »
I think it's good if is motivated by right intention.

“Monks, any monks who explain not-Dhamma as not-Dhamma are practicing for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, for the benefit of many people, for the welfare & happiness of human beings & devas. They amass much merit and help this True Dhamma to remain.”

“Monks, any monks who explain Dhamma as Dhamma are practicing for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, for the benefit of many people, for the welfare & happiness of human beings & devas. They amass much merit and help this True Dhamma to remain.”

Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2020, 09:36:34 PM »
That, Nyom Danilo hits the question Atma raised before here:

What could be the problem if "bad" is wrong assumed? And how about, because spoken in relations, when a householder criticises a monk and a monk pointson a householder, Nyom Vivek , according to your views? What then did the Buddha taught in that relations?

Does Nyom thing that the quote is direct connected with "right/good" intention?

Is there any being who wouldn't try to do best according to his/her understanding?
Atma doesn't think that even if most might teach wrong Dhamma would be aware that doing so.

Once "good" intention does not necessary mean that it is a gain or loss for others, many, and for him/herself.

The quote, how ever, leads where Atma thought to guid toward since, like a austrian proverb says: "stupidy (not/wrong knowing/ignorance) does not protect from penalties (bad effects)"
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Danilo

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 09:46:01 AM »
That, Nyom Danilo hits the question Atma raised before here:

What could be the problem if "bad" is wrong assumed? And how about, because spoken in relations, when a householder criticises a monk and a monk pointson a householder, Nyom Vivek , according to your views? What then did the Buddha taught in that relations?

Does Nyom thing that the quote is direct connected with "right/good" intention?

Is there any being who wouldn't try to do best according to his/her understanding?
Atma doesn't think that even if most might teach wrong Dhamma would be aware that doing so.

Once "good" intention does not necessary mean that it is a gain or loss for others, many, and for him/herself.

The quote, how ever, leads where Atma thought to guid toward since, like a austrian proverb says: "stupidy (not/wrong knowing/ignorance) does not protect from penalties (bad effects)"

Those questions makes me turn to MN 61 .
If there is a trace of harm or prejudice in one's intention, that would be a demeritous deed, I suppose.

Offline Vivek

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of others good or bad?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2020, 11:22:21 AM »
I think it's good if is motivated by right intention.

AND

Quote
If there is a trace of harm or prejudice in one's intention, that would be a demeritous deed, I suppose.

NO

I ham an ignorant person. I have intention of attaining nibbana. I have intention of helping others. My ego and my lord ignorance prevents me in doing so. Not only prevent, rather guide me under a " HALLUCINATION " of helping others in showing them a right path but in reality! it's the opposite.

Even this post is written with 'right intention', but it might bring conflicts, clashes, quarrels among us.

Not only me, rather everyone tries to live with "seemingly right intention", still clashes occurs.

That's why!

Buddha gave path of 8 parts, which must be fully satisfied.

Merely a part or a sub-part (intention of view) is not gonna help others in attaining nibbana.

So I will have to walk on Noble 8 fold path first and then only my right-intent will be meritious for me and others.

Before attaining nibbana, my right-intent would only be to " make myself less angry, ••••• abandoning defilements and causes of defilements ".

I don't see any gain in merit, if I am not free from anger while I still preach others to not get angry-- RATHER IT WOULD BE EXACT OPPOSITE . Yes!, I might preach to TRY to not get angry just like I am trying, it might result in any merit if and only if while preaching, I am also enhancing my "abandoning" skill........
Be Happy,
🙂

Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of other good or bad?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2020, 12:13:26 PM »
That, Nyom Danilo hits the question Atma raised before here:

What could be the problem if "bad" is wrong assumed? And how about, because spoken in relations, when a householder criticises a monk and a monk pointson a householder, Nyom Vivek , according to your views? What then did the Buddha taught in that relations?

Does Nyom thing that the quote is direct connected with "right/good" intention?

Is there any being who wouldn't try to do best according to his/her understanding?
Atma doesn't think that even if most might teach wrong Dhamma would be aware that doing so.

Once "good" intention does not necessary mean that it is a gain or loss for others, many, and for him/herself.

The quote, how ever, leads where Atma thought to guid toward since, like a austrian proverb says: "stupidy (not/wrong knowing/ignorance) does not protect from penalties (bad effects)"

Those questions makes me turn to MN 61 .
If there is a trace of harm or prejudice in one's intention, that would be a demeritous deed, I suppose.

May Nyom Danilo never fall into doubt (again). Yes, neither harm of any kind, toward others, toward oneself, that is the essence of right intention.


Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve.” SN 45.8
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Online Johann

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Re: Talking on bad sides and things of others good or bad?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2020, 12:17:10 PM »

So I will have to walk on Noble 8 fold path first and then only my right-intent will be meritious for me and others.

Before attaining nibbana, my right-intent would only be to " make myself less angry, ••••• abandoning defilements and causes of defilements ".

Liberation, Nyom Vivek , is the result of right intention (sankappo/cetana), based on right view. It's not so that liberation is for the sake of any cetana, not so that the training is taken on to gain lesser, or different, but to no more take on anything at all.

Yet one could feel harmed, being adressed by harsh words, and may tried to silent the Buddha with his "own" saying, like this Jains :

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

..."Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 12:41:03 PM by Johann »
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