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91
My person has to add, that even "voluntary" sterilization or castration of one self, e.g. harming oneself, is no skilfull act, if it is not undertaking out of medical reasons, like as to prevent oneself from further bodily harm out of certain sickness.

In regard of depriving oneself from becoming ancestors physically, since it is mostly based on either desire for sensual pleasure (eg. pleasure of intercourse with no physical grave burdensome effects, or giving such pleasures to maintain certain rewards, fullfilling wishes of the trade partner for gain or maintaining) or either desire for becoming (e.g. carrier for example) or not-becoming (may this mine... not come into being), is at most also not skilful but based on wrong view.

As for preventing pregnancy in harmless ways, such might be certain skilfull while actually up to unskillful acts, in as far as it might be a certain responsibility and sacrifice for an addiction not able to let go for now.

In regard of views, it works likewise. Depriving merely physical from touch, of which is the cause of all coming into being and decay, e.g. the whole mass of suffering, does not uproot the cause.

So either cutting of the touch of intellect and idea/thought, by giving into a certain other view, nor the cut off of rebirth rebirth organs physical, would make any end or minimise suffering as effect.

Cutting of touch by improper means, eg. improper attention, make things only worse.

It's only by this Noble Eigthfold Path , that the cut off from the very root of suffering, the possible touch of not-knowing/ignorance (vijjā phassa), by total destruction of vijjā, can be attained.

And even this Noble path can only be reached by skilfull means: generosity, virtue and universal metta/goodwill (e.g. by actions based on right view).
92
In short, just the fact that scientific views chance and are refuted faster then a view has been taken on, makes it merely fascinating that people give even a penny for it.

As for the Dhamma, it's timeless and stands, as for the many kinds of views and their origin, look The Brahmā Net , where such as scientific views can be traced under annihilationist views at most and in "particular eternalism", in cases the sciences derives from theistic background.

It's worthy to mention, that especialy the materialist, eg. annihilationist view, is a grave wrong view, and leads to low and painful realms: see holocaust, killingfields... the common animal realm, if not capable to envision other states as possible outwardly reminded.
93

Aramika   *

Ein oder mehrer Beiträge wurden hier im Thema abgeschnitten und damit in neues Thema "How would generosity, which causes long time benefit, look like? " eröffnet, dem angehäng.
One or more posts have been cut out of this topic here. A new topic, based on it, has been created as "How would generosity, which causes long time benefit, look like? " or attached there.
94

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? , hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
The new topic (or post/s) here are originaly from Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? . For eventual additionally information: please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!

[Original post:]



Generosity, if looking deeply, actually got already lost but has turned into clinging.

This is not a big problem as long as this clinging is wisely managed to do not grow to unbearable levels.

There are different effects on different kind of giving, unpleasant, pleasant, neutral and beyound.

There is giving leadin upwards, giving that maintains one state, giving that leads to refined states, and giving as a factor of the path, leading beyoung.

Of course this statement was made for eighter gaining refined states or even to be a pathfactor for liberation.

So in this manner: What is giving with "clinging wisely managed to do not grow to unbearable levels."? Clinging to what? What counts as not bearable in a benefical manner for all?
95

Aramika   *

Ein oder mehrer Beiträge wurden hier im Thema abgeschnitten und damit in neues Thema "Is everyone selfish on a ultimative level? " eröffnet, dem angehäng.
One or more posts have been cut out of this topic here. A new topic, based on it, has been created as "Is everyone selfish on a ultimative level? " or attached there.
96

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? , hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
The new topic (or post/s) here are originaly from Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? . For eventual additionally information: please visit also the Topic of origin. Anumodana!
[Original post:]


Virtue is a present for countless/all beings, and blameless. Not even necessary to care, take from here, to give it there, at all. There is not really merit in redistribution, but simply one or another selfish reason behind, favoring "my beloved", and because I care of them, I have certain power on their ways and being.

Everyone is selfish in a ultimate sense.
Everyone has beloved ones (it may be only oneself or oneself and others)

To think in such a way is not wise in two ways, first because there are those free of selfishness (eg a deliberated lie) and second, one deprives one self from effort to become for oneself, and even this resolve is a void of selfishness and if right grasped even cause for gaining the path, Nyom Danilo .

As for the argument, it is grave wrong view:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made impure in three ways by mental action.

It's btw. worthy to mention, that selfishness is something Noble Ones are void of, that what is called macchariya (stinginess) is abounded by entering the path of Dhamma. Althought certain greed, aversion an delusion may arise in an Ariyans mind, it is no more selfish, e.g. based on what ever self-view. The topic different between lobha and macchariya was touched here: Gier vs. Geiz , and to overcome stinginess (incl. the mental aspects of it such as stingy in regard of dwelling equal stingy in regard of stand/view) is necessary to gain even Jhanas not to speak of path and fruits, liberation.

A wordling, even if being on the Bodhisattva path, will always act on selfish reason, even if skillful, kusala.
97
_/\_ breaking the silas  isn't really an act of wisdom and compassion, isn't it?!   _/\_

Marcel, If you are suggesting that preventing the conception of new lives (sterilization) is a violation of the precept "do not take life". Then, let me ask:

Whenever someone decide in his/her mind "I don't want impregnate/get pregnant" and act upon this decision making use of contraceptive methods (condoms, pills) when enganging in sexual relations or merely not engaging in sexual relations at all. Is this person breaking the precept? Is proper to say that he/she have taken the life (killed) that would be (possibly) fertilized without the contraceptive methods? I don't think so.

Everyone, in some ocasion, have decided (or will decide) "I don't want kids" or "I don't want more kids" and act upon this decision.

And what to say about the bhikkhu who chooses to undergo a life of celibacy (no chance for the conception of new life at all)?
And what about the Buddha himself who created and promoted this rule?

Nyom Danilo , there is a point here, Danilo might not have seen: the title contains "or unskilfull?"

It's importand, because there is a different between Silas (as a rule for bodily and verbal action, formost for harmony in interrelation) and actions (kamma) and effects (vipaka). If arguing on a Silas-level, which is based on a later formulation at large, one could cross the border by saying "taking without having been given from animals is a non-offense matter" for the case one deprives an animal of physical parts, damages the and takes away of the possibility of birth, even for the case to save its life because it might die if becoming pregnant.

Althought even this maintain speculations, not known, kammic effects do not stop by actions toward beings other then human.

In regard of kamma, by even agree that anothe being is harmed, deprived of physical and mental possession, mental approval, it is a ver unskillful kamma.

Even here, if Danilo argues that it does not matter if doing bad thinks for "thought good reason" is encouraging others to unskilfull deeds and to adopt wrong view.

In the case someone would act and sterilize an animal on that account here, even the Sila is actually broken for Danilo, and the words here might exist further like a trap.

Telling to do so, thinking it's ok, those actions are actually very unskillful and likewise if doing by one own.

The act of harming will lead, if attaining even a human life, to uglyness and short life.

The act of depriving of having ancestors, if attaining even a human life, to childlessness and heirlessness.

The act of depriving of organs and damage, if attaining even a human life, to lack of or damaged organs.

The grave wrong view arround it, if even possible to attain a human life only after long time, to stupidity.

So if your attention was directed on a "straw man", e.g. a thought that voluntary depressing of getting childs, which is of course ones own choice, and not easy be unskilfull, then good. Just let it known, so that others don't fall in a trap.

If Danilo still thinks that forced harm, taking physical and other possession from being, is ok, he is here urged to chance his views, for his own benefit quick, an sees the transgression. He does good to also confess it, for his welbeing and progress.

Of course it is voluntary to act either good or bad for one short and long time benefit and that of others as well.

May Danilo come to mind and act wisely.


98
Getting a bit distracted here, but yesterday I watched this YouTube video mentioning the Bhagwan (Osho) cult, where women disciples were demanded to undergo sterilization, because their master wanted to have a lot of fun with them without having to worry about children. ^-^

But I think the moral situation with cats who would otherwise be killed is different. Keeping them alive at least while crippling their reproductive capacity seems to me to be "dark and bright kamma" .
99
Question forked from another topic :
Some would say that is safe to draw the conclusion that there is no afterlife at all based on the cientific knowledge accrued until now.
For those who is willing to put his faith/passion for this belief aside and make a honestly reevaluation about this issue looking for unbiased sources and more realiable methods to attest the validity of this hypothesis, will see that this belief is unlikely to be real. There is plenty of factors against and anyone could make a search to verify for oneself if interested.
This is an astonishing claim. Could you tell more about those "reliable methods to attest the validity of this hypothesis" (of rebirth) which would lead an intelligent person to the conclusion that "this belief is unlikely to be real"?

I would be pleased for any scientific or attempting to be scientific argument and evidence for or against the existence of an afterlife, a pre-life, continued rebirth, or something else in that regard to be discussed here.

As for canonical input here, I am reminded of the Pāyāsi Sutta , maybe the only reference in the suttas to trying to find out about the truth of the afterlife or existence or non-existence of a soul and of heavens or hells, etc. by something maybe vaguely resembling a materialist "scientific method".
I am sure material scientists have become much more sophisticated nowadays, but I do wonder, how can they have possibly derived methods to come to conclusions about how a living being experiences coming-into-existence and passing-out-of-an-existence, and by what measure they could count an afterlife following death, or a pre-life preceding birth, to be "likely" or "unlikely"?

_/\_
100
Marcel, If you are suggesting that preventing the conception of new lives (sterilization) is a violation of the precept "do not take life". Then, let me ask:

Whenever someone decide in his/her mind "I don't want impregnate/get pregnant" and act upon this decision making use of contraceptive methods (condoms, pills) when enganging in sexual relations or merely not engaging in sexual relations at all. Is this person breaking the precept? Is proper to say that he/she have taken the life (killed) that would be (possibly) fertilized without the contraceptive methods? I don't think so.

Everyone, in some ocasion, have decided (or will decide) "I don't want kids" or "I don't want more kids" and act upon this decision.

And what to say about the bhikkhu who chooses to undergo a life of celibacy (no chance for the conception of new life at all)?
And what about the Buddha himself who created and promoted this rule?

Danilo , I hope you don't mind getting me in between this discussion. I have some things to counter in both directions.

The obvious point is that the animals do not decide for themselves. So the situation is different to that of humans who decide on their own will that they want to sterilize themselves.

Although I can see the pragmatical side to it, and I, too, have brought my two male cats to the veterinary to be castrated in the past, it is clear that an act of castration is an act of violence.
While not actually being an act of killing, to abstain from physical violence is often seen as an extension of the first precept, and wheter or not it falls strictly under the precept, I think to abstain from violence is one of the primary things the Buddha encouraged as being part of right effort.

But I think this is a valid point:
Where I live sterilization is a simple and painless cirurgical procedure.
Sterilization not the same as castration.

The level of "violence" here would be the same as with many similar kinds of medical procedures that a pet animal would likely be made to endure for the sake of its health and longevity.

No cutting off of the testes, no curbing of their natural hormone production and natural sexual behaviour. Just that they would not produce any offspring. So the violence in that case would be much reduced, in my opinion.

If we can assume that such male cats don't actually care about their offspring (and as far as I understand that's usually the case; often a male uncastrated cat is even a danger for newborn kittens, as he might kill them, just to make the mother go into season again - even sometimes if he is the father), then I think there's really not any more harm done than with any other safe medical procedure that has no lasting harmful effects on the cat.

I think usually the main purpose of castration (as opposed to sterilization) of a male cat is to change his terroritorial pissing behaviour, if he is kept in-doors. In my experience, where I have lived, for a male cat being not castrated was the privilege of outdoors-only male house cats (not let inside the house, but free to roam and impregnate any neighbour's females without needing to care about the consequences; that would be the female's owners' problem and responsibility).

In the case of my two male cats I had them castrated, because a) I would have had to keep them at least partially indoors, and b) (excuse) they would have been would have been castrated in an animal shelter as well... and the owners of the mother did not even want to bring them to an animal shelter but kill them, in order not to have to pay for any kind of care and medical costs, c) sterilization is much more expensive and I had no money for that.

I regretted "having to" let my cats be castrated for pragmatical reasons. I think it does reduce their quality of life a lot, and they will feel much better if they are left free in their natural state. But better castrated than dead probably.

As for sterilization (vasectomy) of male cats, it seems to me that there is actually not much of a downside for the male cat. Of course I am not a cat and don't really know how they feel about it and if they would understand that anything has changed after the medical procedure. But it seems they would behave just like before, including getting into fights, pissing all over the place and getting horny.

For female cats, the option of sterilization (removal of the ovaries) as opposed to spaying (removal of uterus and ovaries) seems to become more common as well. Maybe it was more difficult in the past. So female cats, too, could be sterilized nowadays while keeping their hormonal cycles intact and natural, but depriving them of the possibility to bear offspring.

I guess depriving the females of the possibility to bear offspring may be considered doing them harm. But for the males, who, as far as I understand, don't normally develop a natural friendly relationship to their offspring, it seems to me that it's not.

Of course, I don't know for sure.


But I am  much more interested in something completely different:
Some would say that is safe to draw the conclusion that there is no afterlife at all based on the cientific knowledge accrued until now.
For those who is willing to put his faith/passion for this belief aside and make a honestly reevaluation about this issue looking for unbiased sources and more realiable methods to attest the validity of this hypothesis, will see that this belief is unlikely to be real. There is plenty of factors against and anyone could make a search to verify for oneself if interested.
This is an astonishing claim. Could you tell more about those "reliable methods to attest the validity of this hypothesis" (of rebirth) which would lead an intelligent person to the conclusion that "this belief is unlikely to be real"?

I made another topic for that question here .

_/\_
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Johann

Today at 09:11:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Sophorn

Today at 08:40:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
May every being be happy and free from dukkha.
May many renew their vows in silas today.   :-* :-* :-*
 

Danilo

April 15, 2018, 12:43:25 AM
Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

April 15, 2018, 12:38:56 AM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Johann

April 12, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Moritz
 

Moritz

April 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 07:19:18 PM
Hello.
 

Johann

April 10, 2018, 01:09:20 PM
Nyom. (Sideboad ist stets zugeklappt... tech. Probl.) 3:00 ist auch schon guten Tag.
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
Good day (night here)
_/\_
 

Moritz

April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 AM
Namasakara, Bhante. _/\_
 

Johann

April 09, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Take your time Nyom Danilo and watch the breath to stay best calm for best benefit. A lot of chances to get ride of many ols burdens.
 

Danilo

April 08, 2018, 06:24:57 PM
_/\_
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
Nyom Danilo.
 

Marcel

April 08, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
sadhu!
 

Johann

April 08, 2018, 07:35:17 AM
Sadhu!
 

Moritz

April 08, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
Good Uposatha to all. _/\_
 

Marcel

April 01, 2018, 06:17:08 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 31, 2018, 10:11:20 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 31, 2018, 09:52:03 AM
 :-* ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen uposatha  :-*
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 06:44:11 PM
Atma zieht sich hier nun zurück. Möge sich Vollkommenheit einstellen.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Nyom Binocular.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 04:10:58 PM
Nyom Jens.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:47:58 PM
Brahmane Hanspeter.
 

Johann

March 27, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Moritz, mag sich Vollendung ergeben. (Chamreun bo)
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Chom reap sour. _/\_
 

Moritz

March 27, 2018, 12:11:33 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

March 26, 2018, 01:42:45 PM
Nyom Binocular.

my person will leave for today and rests. There have been left some hard challenges (sure for many). May they be releasing taken and increase conviction.
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Gute Antwort. Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 25, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
 :-* :-* :-*

beste wünsche zurück an erhwürdigen bhante! es ist unsicher wann ich wieder komme! upanissayapaccayena!  :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

March 25, 2018, 12:28:38 PM
Marcel.
(Heute im Nordkloster, best wünsche vom Abt dort, er fragt stets "Wann kommt er? Ich muß immer an ihn denken."
 

Johann

March 24, 2018, 10:44:34 AM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 24, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
 :-* heute ist uposatha!! ich wünsche allen ein verdienstvollen tag! mögen die devas jene bescheid geben, die kein zugang haben! :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Sadhu! Zu was immer einer Zuflucht nimmt, sich hingibt, daran erfreut, das wird/ist sein Schutz, für Bindung oder Ungebundenheit.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
 :-* möge die drei juwelen den ehrwürdigen bhante beschützen und ihn auf seinem weg unterstützen :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
Kampf der Devas mit den Asuras um den Berg. :)
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 01:26:30 AM
Regenzeit... außen trüb und unangenehm, nagend, faulend, doch dahinter ist alles fein.
 

Marcel

March 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
 :-* ehrwürdiger bhante johann, ja soweit alles gut! und wie geht es ihnen?  :-*
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:58:05 AM
verlesen... Marcel :) alles gut im (ver)laufen?
 

Johann

March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Moritz
 

Administration

March 21, 2018, 03:42:55 PM
Sadhu!
 

Marcel

March 21, 2018, 03:32:47 PM
 :-* mögen sie alle noch in diesem leben das herz von avijja befreien!!! :-*
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 05:20:12 AM
This "wiki"-like backup tool is meant as a outwardy insurance that one does not be afraid that anything possible good can be desroyed or made bad while looking for cleaning it. So worry at all, kamma does not dissapear. No need to fear to make good deeds, knowing that.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
And there is no intention to just make a museum out of a working and concentration camp, since the Dhamma can not be understood by just looking on forms but by learning and experiance skillful deeds.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 04:00:47 AM
Post-history: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1164.0.html (but there is no notification system). My person uses to make a @mention , off topic "/me" in the OP.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Or to simply make a new post. No need to be shy in doing good things. It's not a museum, it's a working and concentration place. Mudita.
 

Johann

March 19, 2018, 03:47:57 AM
There is such as a "wiki" backup function in all posts, Nyom Danilo. Good is to use the mention option, at the places where making changes @Johann , that it gets not "lost".
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:02:46 AM
I have a backup of the original post in any case. I might review the second post next time. Very insightful teaching. _/\_
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 03:01:35 AM
I've recently fixed many words and sentences of the first post of the thread "Debts, but to whom?". It take me some time trying to figure out the meaning of some sentences. So it would be good if Bhante could check if the original intended meaning of the post still intact. I have a backup of the ori
 

Danilo

March 19, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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