Posted by: Dhammañāṇa
« on: February 27, 2018, 12:43:07 AM »Possible good to add:
Formal (outwardly) Orderline:
If looking at the mentioning orderline to be found for example in MV III, one could find a formal "hierarchy" of respect, in regard of the kind of orditation like this:
- Bhikkhu (most Vassas first, formal)
- [One on "probation" for acceptence, e.g. from another religion][1]
- Bhikkhunī (most Vassas first, formal)
- Sikkhamāna (femal trainee)
- Sāmaṇera (most Vassas first, informal)
- Sāmaṇerī (most Vassas first, informal)
[order of laypeople, traditionally likewise amount of precepts first, then sorted by age and then gender]
- male lay person (age, informal, traditionally)
- female lay person (age, informal, traditionally)
A certain transaction or deserving disciplinary action would order one behind the "clean" within ones kind.
In regard of different afflictions, this order can be total different if meeting together, aside of the general acceptance of Bhikkhunīs at present and other other forms of female ordination.
An overview of worthy of respect:
"Hierachy" of people of goodness:
(general, can differ in cases aside of Noble Ones):
- Ordinary beings
- Ordinary people
- Ordinary beings hungry, lacking existencial needs
- Normal friends and wordly fellows
- Normal elders
[People of goodness:]
- Wordily teachers
- Ones family and relatives
- Ones first goods, parents
- People keeping 5 precepts
- People keeping 8 pr.
- People keeping 10 precepts
- Homeless 10 precepts
- Samanera
- Young Bhikkhu
- Full Bhikkhu
- Thera
- Maha Thera
- Preceptor (the one who gave ordination)
- Nissaya (ones spirtual teacher)
(male, aside of mother, excels female)
All generally excelt by innwardly qualities, case by case (but which is usually not displayed formal and outwardly to cause no confusion):
- wordlings
- Layperson following the training (still enjoys sensuality)
- Recluse/monastic following the training (still enjoying sensual pleasure)
- Layperson living the wholly life in full, following the Arahats
- Recluse/monastic living the wholly live full, following the Arahats
- Noble One 1. Path winner
- 1. Fruit Winner..2, 3, 4 Patg winner
- Arahat
- Buddha
In regard of Noble Ones, Recluse excels Lay person.
Breaking rules of Respect, Refuge and reconciliation:
Disrespect is not only a serious outwardly disdeed but is a grave hindrance for further development on the path and to gain or maintain right view. Such can, in cases, lead even to the requirement of expelling and in certain cases, such might also to kinds of being excluded in regard of association and ordination. It should be, aside of kammic effects be considered wisely and can lead to have many burdens also in regard of outwardly material supply.
If such happened and one gets aware, one should quicky approach and ask for forgiving and renew the Refuge but also the bond to personal teacher.
Monks and nuns, as well between them and novices have formal ways in doing such toward fellows in the monastic live, but also toward lay people, if a disrespectful and improper behaviour took place.
Toward the Tripple Gems an asking for forgiving, toward the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, would be done and recited daily at the evening veneration ceremony.
The asking for pardon will be usual also made before formal transactions.
Most usualls, so also the asking for forgiving, have been adopted, in a traditional way, also by lay people, usually called Vandāmi, a short recitation, asking for forgiving of deeds by deeds, speech and thoughts, followed by the request for approval of ones good deeds, rejoicing with them and for the sharing of the teacher's merits with them.
It might be also good to mention again, that a reconciliation out of merely fear of material and other low wordly gains, such as particular estimation, or if willing to harm others in this way, has also it's hindering and demeritiously effects.
Since, if not grown up in a society daily practicing it ouwardly, one might have difficulty to find out, it is good to stay with the traditional ways and the 'native' or with culture very common elders.
If there are troublesome conflicts within oneself, either in regard of having problems to adopt the 'hierachy' generally or when outwardly and inwardly laws cause unwelcome situations, best avoiding situation where formal ways have to be displayed.
But it should be also mentioned, that by nature of the Dhamma and also traditionally there is a lot of consideration and patient especially toward one coming from outside of a particularly group and generally there is focus on ones own giving and no demanding system or rights. Only if a larger particularly group is serious endangered through disrespect, certain action can be done but are not in all cases required to proceed.
Generally it is wise to consider any remark in this regard carefully, since its for an informed person, knowing the many troubles in this regard, usually not to be expected that it is ill-willed but for most cases a seldom to receive compassionate gift.
Although not really allowed or encouraged to, that such should be made aside of a Buddha (by his sample) people at large, if not having gained path and therefore not having simply defiled reasons, are fast in willing to kill by trying to cut of not only material things but also to be talk to. Yet, of course, it's not a real lose if no more adressed by those not able to lead anywhere.
The practicing ways and laid down rules of the Buddha are designed to be able to solve nearly every problem for ones own 'coming out of the hole one might have fallen' and to lose nobody even if having just very small possibilities to gain a long term win individually, yet the right maintaining of this rules are the heart of any way to help propable for a long time many as today more then 2600 years, by deep respect and grave fear to change anything, still exists.
Out of this reason common rebels in 'liberal' approaches are traditionally not easy only a little regarded by elders and wise.
Even thought that the Bhikkhus did not change minor rules, even if having been explicit allowed, how degenerated would it be to touch inferior rules and heavy offences, such as in regard of respect and refuge.
Formal (outwardly) Orderline:
If looking at the mentioning orderline to be found for example in MV III, one could find a formal "hierarchy" of respect, in regard of the kind of orditation like this:
- Bhikkhu (most Vassas first, formal)
- [One on "probation" for acceptence, e.g. from another religion][1]
- Bhikkhunī (most Vassas first, formal)
- Sikkhamāna (femal trainee)
- Sāmaṇera (most Vassas first, informal)
- Sāmaṇerī (most Vassas first, informal)
[order of laypeople, traditionally likewise amount of precepts first, then sorted by age and then gender]
- male lay person (age, informal, traditionally)
- female lay person (age, informal, traditionally)
A certain transaction or deserving disciplinary action would order one behind the "clean" within ones kind.
In regard of different afflictions, this order can be total different if meeting together, aside of the general acceptance of Bhikkhunīs at present and other other forms of female ordination.
An overview of worthy of respect:
"Hierachy" of people of goodness:
(general, can differ in cases aside of Noble Ones):
- Ordinary beings
- Ordinary people
- Ordinary beings hungry, lacking existencial needs
- Normal friends and wordly fellows
- Normal elders
[People of goodness:]
- Wordily teachers
- Ones family and relatives
- Ones first goods, parents
- People keeping 5 precepts
- People keeping 8 pr.
- People keeping 10 precepts
- Homeless 10 precepts
- Samanera
- Young Bhikkhu
- Full Bhikkhu
- Thera
- Maha Thera
- Preceptor (the one who gave ordination)
- Nissaya (ones spirtual teacher)
(male, aside of mother, excels female)
All generally excelt by innwardly qualities, case by case (but which is usually not displayed formal and outwardly to cause no confusion):
- wordlings
- Layperson following the training (still enjoys sensuality)
- Recluse/monastic following the training (still enjoying sensual pleasure)
- Layperson living the wholly life in full, following the Arahats
- Recluse/monastic living the wholly live full, following the Arahats
- Noble One 1. Path winner
- 1. Fruit Winner..2, 3, 4 Patg winner
- Arahat
- Buddha
In regard of Noble Ones, Recluse excels Lay person.
Breaking rules of Respect, Refuge and reconciliation:
Disrespect is not only a serious outwardly disdeed but is a grave hindrance for further development on the path and to gain or maintain right view. Such can, in cases, lead even to the requirement of expelling and in certain cases, such might also to kinds of being excluded in regard of association and ordination. It should be, aside of kammic effects be considered wisely and can lead to have many burdens also in regard of outwardly material supply.
If such happened and one gets aware, one should quicky approach and ask for forgiving and renew the Refuge but also the bond to personal teacher.
Monks and nuns, as well between them and novices have formal ways in doing such toward fellows in the monastic live, but also toward lay people, if a disrespectful and improper behaviour took place.
Toward the Tripple Gems an asking for forgiving, toward the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, would be done and recited daily at the evening veneration ceremony.
The asking for pardon will be usual also made before formal transactions.
Most usualls, so also the asking for forgiving, have been adopted, in a traditional way, also by lay people, usually called Vandāmi, a short recitation, asking for forgiving of deeds by deeds, speech and thoughts, followed by the request for approval of ones good deeds, rejoicing with them and for the sharing of the teacher's merits with them.
It might be also good to mention again, that a reconciliation out of merely fear of material and other low wordly gains, such as particular estimation, or if willing to harm others in this way, has also it's hindering and demeritiously effects.
Since, if not grown up in a society daily practicing it ouwardly, one might have difficulty to find out, it is good to stay with the traditional ways and the 'native' or with culture very common elders.
If there are troublesome conflicts within oneself, either in regard of having problems to adopt the 'hierachy' generally or when outwardly and inwardly laws cause unwelcome situations, best avoiding situation where formal ways have to be displayed.
But it should be also mentioned, that by nature of the Dhamma and also traditionally there is a lot of consideration and patient especially toward one coming from outside of a particularly group and generally there is focus on ones own giving and no demanding system or rights. Only if a larger particularly group is serious endangered through disrespect, certain action can be done but are not in all cases required to proceed.
Generally it is wise to consider any remark in this regard carefully, since its for an informed person, knowing the many troubles in this regard, usually not to be expected that it is ill-willed but for most cases a seldom to receive compassionate gift.
Although not really allowed or encouraged to, that such should be made aside of a Buddha (by his sample) people at large, if not having gained path and therefore not having simply defiled reasons, are fast in willing to kill by trying to cut of not only material things but also to be talk to. Yet, of course, it's not a real lose if no more adressed by those not able to lead anywhere.
The practicing ways and laid down rules of the Buddha are designed to be able to solve nearly every problem for ones own 'coming out of the hole one might have fallen' and to lose nobody even if having just very small possibilities to gain a long term win individually, yet the right maintaining of this rules are the heart of any way to help propable for a long time many as today more then 2600 years, by deep respect and grave fear to change anything, still exists.
Out of this reason common rebels in 'liberal' approaches are traditionally not easy only a little regarded by elders and wise.
Even thought that the Bhikkhus did not change minor rules, even if having been explicit allowed, how degenerated would it be to touch inferior rules and heavy offences, such as in regard of respect and refuge.
1. | not explicitly mentioned, but similar to Sikkamāna |