Posted by: Dhammañāṇa
« on: February 21, 2016, 07:49:25 AM »Upasaka/Upasaka Anonymous Ape
sure you could not follow the topic here and in English language the matter here is even more difficult since long left behind.
Here Upasika Sophorn , used to live the standards of honor of which should be honored like it is lived in this tradition since thousands of years and even in the western cultures till about 100 years ago, pointed out that it is not good to approach a monk one friend to friend basis.
That is something what is most annoying to here from people, since wester lay people have been introduced to monks in a way that they are equal to them from monks so that they could build up their community together with them, have there companions beside them letting them think that there is now a lifting to this status.
That notion terrible destructive in many ways for the Dhamma and Nibbana, but also terrible destroying if taken, for people and there certain worldly purposes and desire for coupling.
Yes, that the dimension it works, but his discovery, like you sensed when taking about dosantarena, actually totally opposes his ways, the ways around him and mostly the way he had attracted and "corrupted" people all over the world.
Actually if he would ever have lived in a community that follows the old ways he would have known it without wasting time of study Pali, since this tradition is forwarded by a living tradition and will hardly be understood in reading letters of death language. Its pretty normal and a very good way to live together to call even a child now novice Venerable, because the fact that he has taken on the holy life makes him Venerable and something like Most Venerable, Venerable Teacher for those who are elder in the tradition. That is also helpful for lay people if elders do not talk to younger like childs. But as sad, its still alive an some places, even people of a whole country still following it, but people like Sujato or those who think who can bring anything useful from the modern world and wrong views into to old tradition have done good work already that that will disappear eternally from this earth after some more big last conflicts.
So if he would follow his discovery honestly he would to change many things and even make many think he initiated in a communist and postmodern approach. Its how ever also visible that he NEVER really used to live in a community of the old tradition and never took on their behavior what reading his pondering.
Maybe Upasaka/Upasika Anonymous Ape can follow it. And at least the wish behind is, that people rather put the ways of the elders into practice especially when working with Dhamma and start to with Namo, on the first place not "this is a place to consume pali texts" being a successful dealer under consumer.
They need to address each other in that way, because they are intent to bond each other. To use equal addressing on "duzen" (or to address so. informally, to be on a first-name basis) was the break even point invention of supermarkets and the death of righteous independent business in Europe.
In US Atma guesses its actually already unknown, in Germany nearly extinct, for the purposes to amass and bind people in internet a red flag and western monks give even more food to this in their postmodern views having not learned to respect what needs to be respected and pull others on the same level as well.
Obviously no, his hole ident, because he is not able to grasp the matter and also not able to pay respect (a western or modern problem generally, because havn't no more lerned since child and are merely taught to reject all kinds of more exalted), is to find way to demontage what ever could be authority in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and he is one of the people who work exclusively for the destruction of the Sangha, of his parents, since he is not able to subordinate, is not able to make basic merits and follow the tradition.
And he attracts what ever marginal group that give power and votes and walks the same way like politic is working today. No more a matter of wisdom and tradition but a matter of quantity and power to get ones own ideas put into reality.
So what ever he does there is nor or lesser dosantarena and he would not take any critic that is actually without any dosa but simply for his benefit and that of the most. Its not so that there is not much of secretly killing behind so glory seeming regimes. There is a purpose, and this purpose is NOT nibbana. Its marayana.
Since this topic was bought up here, in regard of addressing, form somebody who is like all Buddhist Generation, so used to it like people in the west would use flush, people lay people and monks have been annoyed and left. Yet its even the first step into Dhamma, refuge and reverence (the English translation is hopefully readable and not prove read).
There is no way to get Dhamma into the heart, if that is not the prerequisite.
That was why Atma wrote, great that he had discovered but less hope that he would not merely search, like all scholars, to disprove the Buddha, Dhamma Sangha. Like he already did:
So you should be clear about his purposes and you should think deeply what benefit you will have from this undertakings of deconstruction of the Sangha, the Dhamma and actually the Buddha in robes and financed by the heritage of the goodness and the merits of the Buddha.
People don't estimate the results of there disrespect and ways of thinking and do not fear to eat even there parents.
And do come back to your sadness (in the other topic ), there is maybe another addition from the second council in the Maha prainibbana Sutta:
And that it what is meant by the story behind this stanza:
Nothing else they do, and it is a matter of compassion to step down to them and tell them. It really does not matter to look like if one has become dirty in this way. It rolls off. And if pure gifts are not received, whose lost is it?
Of course it make one feel somehow sorry knowing that there will be may nobody left to teach the very basics and not what is desired but missing them, but how ever, its needed that the path will be actually walked so that it stays worn-out even a little for those able to see and does not make sense to amass a large troupe first and then do not find it and trample a misleading highway into Samsara.
So also in this matter, Atma knows that well from his "real" children, one needs to let go and if people see that there most be really a reason why one is able to do so might follow anyhow. As for each individual, only ones own deeds change ones conditions, and to make a different is pretty needed to leave Devadatta and his host:
Using mudita, remembering that Devatatta is sad to become a Pacecabuddha one time. As for those who did never come in touch with the Buddhas teachings, it will be maybe up to the next Buddha or is eternally not wished, since they feel fine where the turn around. So in this way one is able to leave not out of aversion, but by appreciation an rejoice with there wordily merits so that they gain what they desire.
Atma wrote about "Mudita und das Fehlen der 'Buddhanatur' in Metta " (mudita and the missing 'buddhanature' in metta), maybe Atma is able to give a glimpse of the message with his pour language skills the next days.
What brings him back to work, time is precious to leave the needed and inspirations for others behind. So it's good to go first for doing some deeds in making the alms round:
Atma will send it to Sujato when done as far as he can, I to learn the different of what is a gift without strings to the world and second to get the chance to reflect by making the best out of gifts rather to focus on amass, becoming, aging, sickness and death and to bend his ways.
If Upasika/Upasaka like to force him by samples, maybe you put effort in making good things even better and having kammic possibilities try to forward it and look if your deeds bear fruits among the following of Baka . Giving them an invitation.
sure you could not follow the topic here and in English language the matter here is even more difficult since long left behind.
Here Upasika Sophorn , used to live the standards of honor of which should be honored like it is lived in this tradition since thousands of years and even in the western cultures till about 100 years ago, pointed out that it is not good to approach a monk one friend to friend basis.
That is something what is most annoying to here from people, since wester lay people have been introduced to monks in a way that they are equal to them from monks so that they could build up their community together with them, have there companions beside them letting them think that there is now a lifting to this status.
That notion terrible destructive in many ways for the Dhamma and Nibbana, but also terrible destroying if taken, for people and there certain worldly purposes and desire for coupling.
Quote from: Anonymous Ape
So far I think his choice is not bad. "Venerable" for "ayasma", and "reverend" for "avuuso", if I read correctly.
Yes, that the dimension it works, but his discovery, like you sensed when taking about dosantarena, actually totally opposes his ways, the ways around him and mostly the way he had attracted and "corrupted" people all over the world.
Actually if he would ever have lived in a community that follows the old ways he would have known it without wasting time of study Pali, since this tradition is forwarded by a living tradition and will hardly be understood in reading letters of death language. Its pretty normal and a very good way to live together to call even a child now novice Venerable, because the fact that he has taken on the holy life makes him Venerable and something like Most Venerable, Venerable Teacher for those who are elder in the tradition. That is also helpful for lay people if elders do not talk to younger like childs. But as sad, its still alive an some places, even people of a whole country still following it, but people like Sujato or those who think who can bring anything useful from the modern world and wrong views into to old tradition have done good work already that that will disappear eternally from this earth after some more big last conflicts.
So if he would follow his discovery honestly he would to change many things and even make many think he initiated in a communist and postmodern approach. Its how ever also visible that he NEVER really used to live in a community of the old tradition and never took on their behavior what reading his pondering.
Maybe Upasaka/Upasika Anonymous Ape can follow it. And at least the wish behind is, that people rather put the ways of the elders into practice especially when working with Dhamma and start to with Namo, on the first place not "this is a place to consume pali texts" being a successful dealer under consumer.
They need to address each other in that way, because they are intent to bond each other. To use equal addressing on "duzen" (or to address so. informally, to be on a first-name basis) was the break even point invention of supermarkets and the death of righteous independent business in Europe.
In US Atma guesses its actually already unknown, in Germany nearly extinct, for the purposes to amass and bind people in internet a red flag and western monks give even more food to this in their postmodern views having not learned to respect what needs to be respected and pull others on the same level as well.
Quote from: Anonymous Ape
Apart from his revisionist ideas I think Ven. Sujato is quite interested to get to the essence and meaning of the Buddha's teachings and making it available to others.
Obviously no, his hole ident, because he is not able to grasp the matter and also not able to pay respect (a western or modern problem generally, because havn't no more lerned since child and are merely taught to reject all kinds of more exalted), is to find way to demontage what ever could be authority in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and he is one of the people who work exclusively for the destruction of the Sangha, of his parents, since he is not able to subordinate, is not able to make basic merits and follow the tradition.
And he attracts what ever marginal group that give power and votes and walks the same way like politic is working today. No more a matter of wisdom and tradition but a matter of quantity and power to get ones own ideas put into reality.
So what ever he does there is nor or lesser dosantarena and he would not take any critic that is actually without any dosa but simply for his benefit and that of the most. Its not so that there is not much of secretly killing behind so glory seeming regimes. There is a purpose, and this purpose is NOT nibbana. Its marayana.
Since this topic was bought up here, in regard of addressing, form somebody who is like all Buddhist Generation, so used to it like people in the west would use flush, people lay people and monks have been annoyed and left. Yet its even the first step into Dhamma, refuge and reverence (the English translation is hopefully readable and not prove read).
There is no way to get Dhamma into the heart, if that is not the prerequisite.
That was why Atma wrote, great that he had discovered but less hope that he would not merely search, like all scholars, to disprove the Buddha, Dhamma Sangha. Like he already did:
Quote from: Sujato
(However, in my opinion it's likely this passage is somewhat late, probably from the Second Council, so it doesn't help as much as it might.)
So you should be clear about his purposes and you should think deeply what benefit you will have from this undertakings of deconstruction of the Sangha, the Dhamma and actually the Buddha in robes and financed by the heritage of the goodness and the merits of the Buddha.
People don't estimate the results of there disrespect and ways of thinking and do not fear to eat even there parents.
And do come back to your sadness (in the other topic ), there is maybe another addition from the second council in the Maha prainibbana Sutta:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
"Enough, friends! Do not grieve, do not lament! We are well rid of that great ascetic. Too long, friends, have we been oppressed by his saying: 'This is fitting for you; that is not fitting for you.' Now we shall be able to do as we wish, and what we do not wish, that we shall not do."
And that it what is meant by the story behind this stanza:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
The skill of a fool can only harm him; it destroys his merit and his wisdom (lit., it severs his head).
Nothing else they do, and it is a matter of compassion to step down to them and tell them. It really does not matter to look like if one has become dirty in this way. It rolls off. And if pure gifts are not received, whose lost is it?
Of course it make one feel somehow sorry knowing that there will be may nobody left to teach the very basics and not what is desired but missing them, but how ever, its needed that the path will be actually walked so that it stays worn-out even a little for those able to see and does not make sense to amass a large troupe first and then do not find it and trample a misleading highway into Samsara.
So also in this matter, Atma knows that well from his "real" children, one needs to let go and if people see that there most be really a reason why one is able to do so might follow anyhow. As for each individual, only ones own deeds change ones conditions, and to make a different is pretty needed to leave Devadatta and his host:
Quote from: How to address wrong view?
"Through an element it is, monks, that beings flow together, meet together. Beings of low tastes flow together, meet together with them of low tastes. They of virtuous tastes flow together, meet together with them of virtuous tastes. So have they done in the past. So will they do in the future. So do they now in the present."
Using mudita, remembering that Devatatta is sad to become a Pacecabuddha one time. As for those who did never come in touch with the Buddhas teachings, it will be maybe up to the next Buddha or is eternally not wished, since they feel fine where the turn around. So in this way one is able to leave not out of aversion, but by appreciation an rejoice with there wordily merits so that they gain what they desire.
Atma wrote about "Mudita und das Fehlen der 'Buddhanatur' in Metta " (mudita and the missing 'buddhanature' in metta), maybe Atma is able to give a glimpse of the message with his pour language skills the next days.
What brings him back to work, time is precious to leave the needed and inspirations for others behind. So it's good to go first for doing some deeds in making the alms round:
Quote from: 6. Accharāsaṅghātavaggo
53. "Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu indulging in developing loving kindnessfor the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhāna does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. This is the third.
54. "Bhikkhus, the bhikkhupractisingincreasing loving kindnessfor the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhāna, does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. This is the fourth.
55. "Bhikkhus, the bhikkhudevelopingliving by loving kindnessfor the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhāna, does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. This is the fifth.
(not sure if the translation is already fine in its meaning)
Atma will send it to Sujato when done as far as he can, I to learn the different of what is a gift without strings to the world and second to get the chance to reflect by making the best out of gifts rather to focus on amass, becoming, aging, sickness and death and to bend his ways.
If Upasika/Upasaka like to force him by samples, maybe you put effort in making good things even better and having kammic possibilities try to forward it and look if your deeds bear fruits among the following of Baka . Giving them an invitation.