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Topic Summary

Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: September 17, 2019, 07:53:08 AM »

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Kana Prah Ang,
The chosen sutta are matched.
 
_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Posted by: Johann
« on: September 17, 2019, 06:48:49 AM »

In relation to the skill in speech, how ever, it can easy be different in objectives and if skilled one can fall fast onto the road to hell again, get caught (in this regard it's right of not desiring being hunted after by common people).

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Ukkacita Sutta: Bombast

“Monks, there are these two assemblies. Which two? The assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning, and the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast.

“And which is the assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning?

“There is the case where in any assembly when the discourses of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are recited, the monks don't listen, don't lend ear, don't set their hearts on knowing them; don't regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in expression, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. Yet when they have mastered that Dhamma, they don't cross-question one another about it, don't dissect: 'How is this? What is the meaning of this?' They don't make open what isn't open, don't make plain what isn't plain, don't dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in bombast, not in cross-questioning.

“And which is the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast?

“There is the case where in any assembly when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited, the monks don't listen, don't lend ear, don't set their hearts on knowing them; don't regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when the discourses of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. And when they have mastered that Dhamma, they cross-question one another about it and dissect it: 'How is this? What is the meaning of this?' They make open what isn't open, make plain what isn't plain, dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast.”

[២៩២] ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ បរិស័ទនេះ មាន ២ ពួក។ បរិស័ទ ២ ពួក តើដូចម្ដេច។ គឺបរិស័ទសិក្សាខុសទំនង មិនសិក្សាដោយការសាកសួរ​ ១ បរិស័ទសិក្សាដោយការសាកសួរ មិនសិក្សាខុសទំនង ១។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ បរិស័ទសិក្សាខុសទំនង មិនសិក្សាដោយការ​សាកសួរ តើដូចម្ដេច។​ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ ភិក្ខុក្នុងសាសនានេះ ពួកសូត្រណា ដែលជា​ភាសិត របស់តថាគត ដ៏ជ្រាលជ្រៅ មានអត្ថដ៏ជ្រាលជ្រៅ ជាលោកុត្តរៈ ប្រកបដោយសុញ្ញតធម៌ កាល​បើពួកសូត្រនោះ ដែលគេកំពុងសំដែង ក៏មិនប្រុងស្ដាប់ មិនផ្ទៀងត្រចៀកស្ដាប់​ មិន​ទប់​ចិត្ត ដែលរាយមាយ ទាំងមិនសំគាល់ថា គួររៀន គួរសិក្សាធម៌ទាំងនោះឡើយ ពួកសូត្រណា ដែល​អ្នក​ប្រាជ្ញ បានតែងទុកជាពាក្យកាព្យ មានអក្ខរវិចិត្ត មានព្យពា្ជនវិចិត្ត ជាសូត្រខាងក្រៅ ជា​សាវក​ភាសិត កាលបើសូត្រទាំងនោះ ដែលគេកំពុងសំដែង ក៏ប្រុងស្ដាប់ ផ្ទៀងត្រចៀកស្ដាប់ ទប់ចិត្ត ដែល​រាយមាយ ទាំងសំគាល់ថា គួររៀន គួរសិក្សាធម៌ទាំងនោះផង ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ លុះ​សិក្សា​ធម៌​នោះ​ហើយ មិនបានសាកសួរគ្នាទៅវិញទៅមក មិនរើជម្រះផងថា ព្យពា្ជនៈនេះ ដូចម្តេច អត្ថរបស់​ភាសិតនេះ ដូចម្ដេច​ ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ មិនបានបើករបស់ ដែលកំបាំងផង មិនបាន​ធ្វើ​របស់ដែលជ្រៅ ឲ្យរាក់ផង មិនបន្ទោបង់សេចក្ដីសង្ស័យ ក្នុងធម៌ទាំងឡាយ ដែលជាហេតុគួរឲ្យ​សង្ស័យ​ជាច្រើន​ស្ថានផង ក្នុងបរិស័ទណា ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ បរិស័ទនេះ ហៅថា បរិស័ទសិក្សាខុសទំនង មិន​សិក្សាដោយការសាកសួរឡើយ។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ ចុះបរិស័ទសិក្សា ដោយការសាកសួរ មិន​សិក្សា​ខុសទំនង តើដូចម្ដេច។​ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ ពួកភិក្ខុក្នុងសាសនានេះ ពួកសូត្រណា ដែលអ្នកប្រាជ្ញ តែងជាពាក្យកាព្យ មានអក្ខរវិចិត្ត មានព្យពា្ជនវិចិត្ត ជារបស់ខាងក្រៅ ជា​សាវកភាសិត កាលបើសូត្រទាំងនោះ ដែលគេកំពុង​សំដែង ក៏មិនប្រុងស្ដាប់ មិនផ្ទៀងត្រចៀក​ស្ដាប់​ មិនទប់ចិត្តរាយមាយ ទាំងមិនសំគាល់ថា គួរ​រៀន គួរសិក្សា​ធម៌ទាំងនោះដែរ ឯពួកសូត្រណា ដែលជាភាសិតរបស់តថាគត ដ៏ជ្រាលជ្រៅ មានអត្ថដ៏ជ្រាលជ្រៅ ជាលោកុត្តរៈ ប្រកបដោយសុញ្ញតធម៌ កាលបើសូត្រទាំងនោះ ដែលគេកំពុង​សំដែង ក៏ប្រុងស្ដាប់ ផ្ទៀង​ត្រចៀក​ស្ដាប់ ទប់ចិត្តរាយមាយ ទាំងសំគាល់ថា គួររៀន គួរសិក្សាធម៌ទាំងនោះដែរ លុះ​ភិក្ខុ​ទាំង​នោះ សិក្សាធម៌នោះហើយ សាកសួរគ្នាទៅ​វិញទៅមក រើជម្រះថា ព្យពា្ជនៈនេះ ដូចម្តេច អត្ថ​របស់ភាសិតនេះ ដូចម្ដេច​ ភិក្ខុទាំងនោះ បើករបស់ដែលកំបាំងផង ធ្វើរបស់ដែលជ្រៅ ​ឲ្យ​រាក់​ផង បន្ទោបង់សេចក្ដីសង្ស័យ ក្នុងធម៌​ទាំងឡាយ ដែលជាហេតុគួរឲ្យសង្ស័យជាច្រើនស្ថានបានផង ក្នុងបរិស័ទណា ម្នាលភិក្ខុ​ទាំង​ឡាយ បរិស័ទនេះ ហៅថា បរិស័ទ សិក្សាដោយការសាកសួរ មិនសិក្សាខុសទំនងឡើយ។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុទាំងឡាយ បរិស័ទ មាន ២​ពួកនេះឯង។ ម្នាលភិក្ខុ​ទាំង​ឡាយ បណ្ដាបរិស័ទពីរពួក​នេះ បរិស័ទដែលសិក្សា ដោយការសាកសួរ មិន​សិក្សា​ខុស​ទំនងនុ៎ះ ទើបប្រសើរ។

http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7902.msg11727.html#msg11727

(My person, quick selecting, did he chose the right Sutta in Khmer, Nyom Cheav Villa , or the wrong paragraph number?)
Posted by: Johann
« on: September 17, 2019, 06:16:42 AM »

Are there any more resources for Dhamma talks in situations like this one?

There are surely many, as well as Suttas and stories, Nyom Hosking . Which specifically "situation" did he thought of.
Posted by: Johann
« on: September 17, 2019, 06:13:10 AM »

Good, right, straight speech: such a person is valued, "expensive" and of course often put under a yoke, hunted after, therefore. People like the near and association with such a person and do all to catch him, of course. Surely someone without skills is not desired. (Maybe hunter here was to much understood as "killer" by Nyom Moritz .  They had been hunted to become someone valued worker, the elephants with good tusk)

Surely there is much worldly danger if good in things beloved by people. Not at least conceit if a speaker like a poet.

Which of the proverbs else is not clear?
Posted by: Moritz
« on: September 16, 2019, 10:20:29 PM »

Are there any more resources for Dhamma talks in situations like this one?

I don't know about any Dhamma talks now.

But I still have not understood most of the Khmer sayings above.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

៣. មនុស្សគេយកសំដី ដំរីគេយកភ្លុក ។
មនុស្សគេយកសម្តី ពាក្យចាស់លោកសំដៅ យកពាក្យសំដីប្រកបដោយគតិបណ្ឌិត ពាក្យសច្ចៈ ជាដើម ។
ដំរីគេយកភ្លុក  ពាក្យចាស់លោកពោលថា មួយតួខ្លួនដំរី គ្មានកន្លែងត្រង់ណា មានតំលៃស្មើនឹងភ្លុកវាទេ ។ ដោយសារយ៉ាងនេះហើយបានជា
ព្រានប្រម៉ាញ់ស្វែងរកដំរីណាដែលមានភ្លុកធំល្អ ។

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_


3. Humans take on (work with) saying, elephants take on tusk.

"People take on sayings": old word Venerables used for aims, words of sayings objected to become wise, words leaded by truth.

"Elephants take n tusk", the old Venerables told that not part of the elephants body there is straight and even. When the tusk is straighten out it's said: Hunters are after elephants with good and big tusk.


* Johann : transl. draft added.

I do not understand the meaning here. For me it sounds maybe like meaning: Humans just talk (with their mouths, uselessly). Elephants work (with their tusks), doing something useful.

But maybe I have misunderstood this. It also does not sound appealing to have a "straight" tusk and thus becoming the prey of hunters.

I like this one:
៤. រនាបបាក់យករនាបជួស សម្តីហួសរកអ្វីជួសគ្មាន ។
4. Trellis broken, lift trellis to renew, sayings beyond repairing do not exist.

(A trellis like such here ? But not so important, whatever kind of structure, just some word I did not know.)

_/\_
Posted by: Hosking
« on: September 16, 2019, 08:16:10 PM »

Are there any more resources for Dhamma talks in situations like this one?
Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: September 04, 2019, 01:11:52 PM »

  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Posted by: Johann
« on: September 04, 2019, 12:52:23 PM »

Sadhu Nyon Cheav Villa (nearly had overseen it, and also to translate)

On the topic, since some people might think that wise advocate silence, which is totally not the case:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The story of the follower of Non-Buddhist Doctrines   

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (268) and (269) of this book, with reference to some non-Buddhist ascetics.

To those who offered them food or other things, those ascetics would say words of blessing. They would say, "May you be free from danger, may you prosper and get rich, may you live long," etc. At that time, the followers of the Buddha did not say anything after receiving something from their lay-disciples. This was because during the first twenty years after the Buddha's attainment of Buddhahood they were instructed to remain silent on receiving offerings. Since the followers of the Buddha were silent when ascetics of other doctrines were saying things which were pleasing to their disciples, people began to compare the two groups.

When the Buddha heard about this, he permitted the bhikkhus to say words of blessing to their disciples after receiving offerings. As a result of that, more and more people invited the followers of the Buddha for alms. Then, the ascetics of other doctrines remarked with disdain: "We adhere to the practice of the muni and keep silent, whereas the followers of Samana Gotama go about talking exuberantly in the eating places." On hearing those disparaging remarks, the Buddha said, "Bhikkhus! There are some who keep silent because they are ignorant and timid, and some who keep silent because they do not want to share their profound knowledge with others. Only one who has overcome evil is to be called a muni."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 268 Not by silence does one become a muni, if one is dull and ignorant. Like one holding a pair of scales, the wise one takes what is good and rejects what is evil.

Verse 269 For this reason he is a muni. He who understands both internal and external aggregates is also, for that reason, called a muni.

Generally two dwellings are adviced: "noble silence" (3. Jhana) or talk on Dhamma. So especially for one not having gained path, but also the customs of the Arahats, is engaging in Dhamma talks, in the ten kusala topics.
Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: August 31, 2019, 05:52:28 PM »

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

៣. មនុស្សគេយកសំដី ដំរីគេយកភ្លុក ។
មនុស្សគេយកសម្តី ពាក្យចាស់លោកសំដៅ យកពាក្យសំដីប្រកបដោយគតិបណ្ឌិត ពាក្យសច្ចៈ ជាដើម ។
ដំរីគេយកភ្លុក  ពាក្យចាស់លោកពោលថា មួយតួខ្លួនដំរី គ្មានកន្លែងត្រង់ណា មានតំលៃស្មើនឹងភ្លុកវាទេ ។ ដោយសារយ៉ាងនេះហើយបានជា
ព្រានប្រម៉ាញ់ស្វែងរកដំរីណាដែលមានភ្លុកធំល្អ ។

 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_


3. Humans take on (work with) saying, elephants take on tusk.

"People take on sayings": old word Venerables used for aims, words of sayings objected to become wise, words leaded by truth.

"Elephants take n tusk", the old Venerables told that not part of the elephants body there is straight and even. When the tusk is straighten out it's said: Hunters are after elephants with good and big tusk.


* Johann : transl. draft added.
Posted by: Johann
« on: August 31, 2019, 05:22:32 PM »

That's more understandable: "The "enjoying fish" is caught because of his mouth". Favorite of village-children with their simple bamboo fishing-rod, supplying the families meal.

Likewise those of lossy talk are easy food for any assembling to nurish on.

* Johann : Western know this fish only as expensive ornamental fish from pet shops.
Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: August 31, 2019, 04:50:31 PM »

កូណា ព្រះអង្គ  :) _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

ត្រីកំភ្លាញ ( This fish is called Moonlight Gourami )
ជា​ប្រភេទ​ត្រី​រស់​នៅតាម​បឹងបួរ​មួយ​ប្រភេទ ដែលមាន​រាង​សំប៉ែត និង​មាន​ពុកមាត់​វែងៗ​។
នៅក្នុង​សភាព​ធម្មជាតិ​របស់​ត្រី​កំភ្លាញ គឺជា​ប្រភេទ​ត្រី ចូលចិត្ត​ប្រលែង​លេង​ជាមួយ​ទឹក ដែលជា​ទូទៅ គេ​តែង​និយាយថា​«​ត្រី​មាត់​» ឬ​«​ត្រី​ផុស​»​ជាដើម​ព្រោះតែ​បែបនេះ អ្នកនេសាទ អាចនេសាទ​ដោយ​មធ្យោបាយ​ផ្សេងៗ ដើម្បី​ចាប់​ត្រី​នេះ នៅក្នុង​ទឹក​បឹង ត្រពាំង ហើយ​គេ​ក៏​អាច​ដឹងបាន​ថា កន្លែង​ណា​សម្បូរ​ទៅដោយ​ត្រី​កំភ្លាញ​រស់នៅ​  ។ ត្រីកំភ្លាញក៏ងាប់អសារបង់ ។

ចាស់បូរាណបានប្រៀបធៀប ទៅនឹងមនុស្សខ្លះតែងតែវិនាសដោយសារសម្តីនិយាយឥតប្រយោជន៍របស់ខ្លួន ។

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Posted by: Johann
« on: August 31, 2019, 04:20:11 PM »

Those folk-sayings are not so easy to translate as very figural and requiring to know also certain ways. Good if each would be explained. There might be also certain word-plays behind.

កំភ្លាញ, for example, seems to be a kind of fish with long mouth, meaning of "long mouth" is also thinking deeply, speaking broad.

Maybe this fish? But there are also some without teeth, similar.

Posted by: Johann
« on: August 31, 2019, 02:57:25 PM »

Sadhu, Sadhu, for sharing. Atma will try to translate them.
Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: August 31, 2019, 02:37:11 PM »

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ខ្ញុំកូណា សូមពេលដើម្បីចម្លងសេចក្តីប្រែពីគម្ពីរ ជាភាសាខ្មែរ។


I, Brah Ang, ask for some time to bring up some translations from the Canon in Khmer language.

* Johann : transl. draft added.

No issue at all, how ever inspired. Atma thought lesser on Suttas but on poems, proverbs and folk-sayings. Tipitaka isn't that difficult, yet sometimes other sayings are easier to access for one not so familar.

កូណាព្រះអង្គ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

សុភាសិតខ្មែរខាងលើ ប្រហែលជានឹងមានប្រយោជន៍ ដល់ប្រធានបទខ្លះៗ ។

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kuna, Brah Ang,

maybe the Khmer-proverbs above give certain heedfullness toward the essential.
Posted by: Cheav Villa
« on: August 31, 2019, 02:19:49 PM »

ខ្ញុំកូណាបានរកឃើញសុភាសិតខ្មែរខ្លះៗ ដែលមានប្រជាប្រិយ ទាក់ទងនឹងការនិយាយ ដូចជា ៖

I, Brah Ang, have found some Khmer-proverbs which are popular in relation with speech, saying:

១. អណ្តាតជាអាទិកន្លង បានសុខទុក្ខផង ពីព្រោះអណ្តាត ។
1. The tongue is the source of overstepping; having happiness or suffering, as well, is because of the tongue.
២.​ មាត់មានគម្រប ដបមានឆ្នុក ។
2. The opening/mouth has a cover, a bottle a stopper.
៣. មនុស្សគេយកសំដី ដំរីគេយកភ្លុក ។
3. Humans lifting up words, elephants (great beings) tusks. (word play? ដំរីភ្លុក = person responsible for funeral/cremation)
៤. រនាបបាក់យករនាបជួស សម្តីហួសរកអ្វីជួសគ្មាន ។
4. Trellis broken, lift trellis to renew, sayings beyond repairing do not exist.
៥. បង្វិលអណ្តាតដប់ជុំសិន សឹមនិយាយ ។
5. To turn the tongue 10 tims around fist, and then speak.
៦. សម្តីជាឯក លេខជាទោ ។
6. Words are superior, numbers are secondary.
៧. នៅម្នាក់ឯងអោយប្រយ័ត្នគំនិត នៅជាមួយញាតិមិត្តអោយប្រយ័ត្នសំដី ។
Being alone be carefull on thoughts, being together with family, friend, be carefull on speech. 
៨. ដើរអោយមានបី ស្រដីអោយមានបួន ។
8. Walking is giving three (kindness? word-play?), speech gives one four? (made talking about the 3 bodily conducts, and four verbal)
៩. កំភ្លាញស្លាប់ព្រោះមាត់ ។
9. (certain) Fish dies because of the mouth.

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* Johann tranl. draft added.