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Topic Summary

Posted by: Johann
« on: November 11, 2019, 10:49:24 AM »


Atma, if remember right that a saying of the Elders in the Commentaries, thought to share related account.

A monk (incl kammical also Brahmans, lay teacher), receiving alms, not restrained in matters of sensuality, is called an Indebtor.
A monk, receiving alms, not virtuous, no Silas, is called a Thief.

The Anana Sutta is also related here and helpful for especially outwardly house-bond:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Anana Sutta: Debtless

Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "There are these four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality. Which four? The bliss of having, the bliss of [making use of] wealth, the bliss of debtlessness, the bliss of blamelessness.

"And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.

"And what is the bliss of [making use of] wealth? There is the case where the son of a good family, using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, partakes of his wealth and makes merit. When he thinks, 'Using the wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, I partake of wealth and make merit,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of [making use of] wealth.

"And what is the bliss of debtlessness? There is the case where the son of a good family owes no debt, great or small, to anyone at all. When he thinks, 'I owe no debt, great or small, to anyone at all,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of debtlessness.

"And what is the bliss of blamelessness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma. When he thinks, 'I am endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of blamelessness.

"These are the four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality."

Knowing the bliss of debtlessness,
& recollecting the bliss of having,
enjoying the bliss of wealth, the mortal
then sees clearly with discernment.
Seeing clearly — the wise one —
      he knows both sides:
that these are not worth one sixteenth-sixteenth
   of the bliss of blamelessness.

Thought to add a related parr from another Sutta as well, for Nyom Danilo

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — performs the five oblations: to relatives, guests, the dead, kings, & devas. This is the fourth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

Debtlessness in regard of the five obligations is very important for the purpose of leaving into another mode of life, going forth, if such is desired, not only for the bliss of debtlessness. As told in the topic, even if skipping a contract rightly for higher, it can be that other might be not happy and cause certain outwardly burdens. That, conventions of the world, has been also seen as needed "political" measure for the Sangha, and one needs certain releasee from those obligations forehand.
Posted by: Danilo
« on: November 11, 2019, 07:57:21 AM »

This sutta seems to be relevant to this topic.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Monks, for one who partakes of sensuality, poverty is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"And a poor, destitute, penniless person gets into debt. For one who partakes of sensuality, getting into debt is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"And a poor, destitute, penniless person, having gotten into debt, owes interest payments. For one who partakes of sensuality, interest payment is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"And when a poor, destitute, penniless person owing interest payments does not pay interest on time, they serve him notice. For one who partakes of sensuality, being served notice is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"And when a poor, destitute, penniless person, being served notice, does not pay, they hound him. For one who partakes of sensuality, being hounded is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"And when a poor, destitute, penniless person, being hounded, does not pay, he is put into bondage. For one who partakes of sensuality, bondage is suffering in the world."

"Yes, lord."

"Thus, monks, poverty is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality. Getting into debt is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality. Interest payment is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality. Being served notice is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality. Being hounded is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality. Bondage is suffering in the world for one who partakes of sensuality.

"In the same way, monks, whoever has no conviction with regard to skillful mental qualities, no sense of conscience with regard to skillful mental qualities, no sense of concern with regard to skillful mental qualities, no persistence with regard to skillful mental qualities, no discernment with regard to skillful mental qualities is, in the discipline of a noble one, said to be poor, destitute, & penniless.

"He — poor, destitute, & penniless, having no conviction with regard to skillful mental qualities, no sense of conscience... no sense of concern... no persistence... no discernment with regard to skillful mental qualities — engages in misconduct by way of the body, misconduct by way of speech, misconduct by way of the mind. For him, I tell you, this is getting into debt.

"For the purpose of concealing his bodily misconduct, he formulates evil desires: He desires, 'May they not know about me.' He resolves, 'May they not know about me.' He speaks, [thinking,] 'May they not know about me.' He makes an effort with his body, [thinking,] 'May they not know about me.' For the purpose of concealing his verbal misconduct... For the purpose of concealing his mental misconduct, he formulates evil desires: He desires, 'May they not know about me.' He resolves, 'May they not know about me.' He speaks, [thinking,] 'May they not know about me.' He makes an effort with his body, [thinking,] 'May they not know about me.' For him, I tell you, this is interest payment.

"And then his well-behaved companions in the holy life say about him, 'This venerable one acts in this way, behaves in this way.' For him, I tell you, this is being served notice.

"And then, when he has gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, he is beset with evil, unskillful thoughts accompanied by remorse. For him, I tell you, this is being hounded.

"He — poor, destitute, & penniless, having engaged in misconduct by way of the body, misconduct by way of speech, & misconduct by way of the mind — on the break-up of the body, after death, is bound by the bond of hell or the bond of the animal womb. And I can imagine no one other bond so tormenting, so painful, so obstructive to the unexcelled rest from bondage, as the bond of hell or the bond of the animal womb."

Poverty is called
   suffering in the world;
so, too, is getting into debt.
A poor person, in debt,
   partaking of sensuality,
   suffers hardship.
Then they hound him
   and put him into bondage:
the painful bond
   for one longing to gain
   sensual pleasures.

Now, anyone with no conviction
in the discipline of a noble one
   — no sense of conscience,
   no sense of concern —
contemplating evil actions,
doing    wrong by way of body,
      wrong by way of speech,
      & wrong by way of the mind,
wants:    'May they not
      know about me.'
He creeps along in body,
speech, or mind,
   piling up evil actions,
      here & there,
      again & again.
He,    with evil actions,
   his wisdom weak,
knowing his own wrong-doing, is
a poor person, in debt.
   Partaking of sensuality,
   he suffers hardship.

Then they hound him —
   painful mental resolves
   born of remorse —
at home or in the wilderness.
He,    with evil actions,
   his wisdom weak,
knowing his own wrong-doing,
   goes to an animal womb
   or is bound in hell:
the painful bond
from which the enlightened
      are freed.

But one with confidence,
living at home,
making gifts of his belongings,
   wins both goals:
advantage in the here-&-now,
& happiness in the world beyond.
   The liberality of this householder
   piles up merit.

Now, anyone with conviction
firmly established
in the discipline of a noble one —
   with a sense of conscience,
   a sense of concern,
      & restrained by virtue —
is, in the discipline of a noble one,
   said to be living in ease.

Gaining a pleasure not of the flesh,
   he determines on equanimity:
abandoning the five hindrances
   — persistence constantly aroused —
entering the jhanas:
      mindful, &

   Knowing this
   as it actually is
in the total ending of all fetters,
through everywhere
his mind is    rightly released.

In him, Such, rightly released,
   there is the knowledge,
   in the total ending
   of the fetters of becoming:
      'My release
      is unshakable.'

That    is the highest knowledge
that,   the happiness unexcelled.

      at rest,
   is release from debt.
Posted by: Johann
« on: March 25, 2018, 03:10:20 PM »

Sadhu for asking further Nyom Danilo .

Let my person try to give some samples, since it is a broad topic, especially in internet.

If someone, for example, wishes to give an recording and audio tool here, thought his wish is pure toward the Sangha (dwelling independent of debts toward the world by right conduct of receiving just what is given without strings) but he has neither the own skill not the merits/money (condition, paccaya) to give, is he able to?
No. He is only able to think "oh may the Sangha, for the wellfare of many be gifted" or "oh, may I be able to fill up the grap one day"

He could, of course sacrify time, either to accumulate the money or material of exchange to buy it free, or invest in merits, skills, to be able to write a program himself. Althought that there is much danger to make a lot of misconduct on the way, not to speak of posdible increase debt toward others, teacher for wordly gains, for expample, a monk not after gain in the world would not encourage you to take or make debts for the sake of giving, since even on one side would be win, there would be lose for you, increasing of debts to the world on the other side.
But for example, if one thinks "I will give up smoking, and the money obtained, I will use", then his whole way to fullfil his wish, in the way of using right means, skillful actions to obtain the desired, is dobble edged of merits.
Owned by him, and obtained by own rightouse effort, such is of great merits.

If he steals for expamle, for such, it's of fourfold demerit. Like killing a chicken to feed the monks: First his own deed. Secound that he made it out of wrong view that killing is good for good. Third that he possible involves the monks, receiving it unknowenly and increases, by their receiving his own wrong view, and forth, because others, knowing about it, would be endangered to act likewise or use it as means to blame the monks.
If a monk would encourage, order or approve such, it would be even multiply to eithfold demerit.

The same counts for debts. In regard of credits: given the are some giving away robs and ask for exchange to wear there tradmark on your body and you would accept such, ask for the rob and from now on in contract to weare a, lets say "I love google" banner. Althought you might be able to bear it, others would be pulled to google and fall into debts there even without having made merits.

Or if you could obtain  a rob with a Lamborghini logo for free and be bound not to remove it, it would be, that if a monk removes it after, might cause you to violate your contract, or if informed about it, either not able to receive it, since such would give a wrong impression if he wears "running messages" for worlds trade, or make a transgression by himself if removing it.

Sometimes debts are made in regard of credit or honor, either toward Mara or Nibbana, sometimes by requirement of material things.

So if willing to increase debts to make a gift, it's good to prove it in regard of it's strings and in which directions they pull. If, for example asking another monk, the monks, a good Sangha... if such and such tool would be avaliable for Sanghas use, there is less to fear (at least mental), if asking a trader or bandit, such could lead to much demerits, suffering and debts into wrong direction.

For example, Moritz wished to buy a word-app free for a year, to use it on this Sangha tablet my person uses. Even to be able to receive it, my person would have been required to get in contract with google play.
Or another sample: Crome, which was installed on this tablet. Sort ago my person was going after the programs suggesting to click for update. Now, thought, well it should be ok since given, my person faces warings "you need to register to google play to run it", meaning they had obiviously a § that alows them to chance from free to more and more bound.

And that's the whole issue with 99,5%of what is avaliable for free but also is bought, if looking into MS contracts. This internet world is so much bound to each other, that it is not easy to keep one self and others with ones share unbound or lead to it.

Another sample is the search engine for zze. As pointed out sometimes, there are solution which could be rightly obtained and given, but as soon as pointing out them, it's easy to fall into a transgression, for example "letting use money", on a mental level, getting involved in wordly issues.

So it's at least something you need to figure out by yourself in detail, either be observing reactions when giving certain thing, or later use (it might be that something is acceptable, but not useable at least: for example one gives a lamp with batteries and wonders later why not used, since the batteries are empty).

Also in smart ways of asking, like: "If somebody does such-and-such, gives such-und-such, would it be possible to receive, would it be conductive for the practice, would it make things easier or even a burden for the receiver?" Or: "How and when could one receive food, what would be obstacles?..."

Giving and receiving, of what is conductive for both, is nothing that can be made by fools in goid way, but requires a lot of wisdom on both sides to fall not in debt personally or by damaging others by doing it.

Wheras the world installs apps which optimize1 not to sacrifice ones possessions but use what ever "free", the optimal Dhamma-app would optimize to never use anything of others, third part, not given, repaid, energy (life) and simply block the use of such, if bound not given for Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, liberation and Nibbana.

There are for example wonderful tools avaliable, but since they are so strongly bound to third part, they require steady maintaining, update, service... and tousands of dangers, where as ZzE for example, simply html - pages do not require much, althought even the simple tools earlier given, are out of range. If giving something that needs a lot of maintaining or interaction in the world, it either needs to be clear that one binds himself long or that it might be soon no more useable for those abstaining from what is not given, or would require them to reduce more and more their main task why they went forth.

Again to generosity given for everyone free to take:

As even at times of the Buddha, there have been social institutions, non-profit, feeding everybody who comes, the Buddha rebuked those using such use of institutions, since not given personally toward the Sanghas members, not for liberation from the world, but allowed to make use of such "in emergency", for two or three times.

Now on internet there are even no real social non-profits avaliable, no cast off, and the usual to give at first place is not easy to see, not to speak of the hard controlled possibilities to make merits if one would wish to do so.

At least to conduct proper is not a question of legal (keeping wordly laws), since they all allow misconduct on certain scale, in mutual agreement or for the loos of others like animal or nature. In some countries and extrem in internet, its possible to make contracts "against good conduct", look at disclaimer of software. Such would never be possible for a building or even a lighter outside of this moral-less and strong careless realm of feeding.

Is stays a fact that even a spoon of rice from a poor person from his own single meal given with pure mind toward the worthy one it uncountable of more benefit as if one gives a billion heavy monastery with an impure heart, still after gains in the world and wrong view, not to speak of even the giant demerits of "Robin hoods" and encourager of doing bad for a good. In this scale here, they are not improper called killer of the Buddha rather then only chicken killer.

But all that is of course also a perfect field for defilements into the other direction, who easily tell "you would, if your would not be pure" or "just wait, maybe later, now you have to look for your own happiness first" or to even blame "it's because the bad others that I am restricted from doing merits".

So one should be sure that such as no possibility to do good, and by right means, is absolutly not sure. Sometimes one needs to give up a certain object and look if something different can be done. And if waiting for help, than it could be long or without having old fruits riping. Ones way out requires sacrifice of own, but never that of others, thats their merit or demerit and walking right, there is nothing to worry that those capable to join good work, join, if not, it's not bad to use all of the possibilities to make merits if leaving the doors open for others to take on it as well.

If the explaining was not conductive to point out what is not clear, it's the best way to find out by simply starting to do, just by the perfect means given to Ven. Rahul (Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone ), simple and not only limeless but also independent of the realms of existence.

In regard of Dhamma-Dana, it's not so that easier *click* *click* is most helpful, but to give access for those wishing to make merits, to active get involved. A concentration and working camp is different of a museum, show-stage, restaurant, yet at the same time it's not wrong if leaving it well adjusted like a museum behind, if ones task is done, not wrong to give a show of good ways like on a stage, and not wrong to serve other all around, but if any of the last requires wrong means, it's because the mind does not focus on good actions but on products, "realities" which are not Nibbana (freedom of any debt), release. If the tools handed over by the elders and great givers are used good, and kept in good condition, even if very slowly, many generations after are able to benefit by the left behind Dhamma Vinaya, mental and sensual visible right means, for their own liberation. The means for the Aschrams development, have been an left over kitchen knife, some throw away and burned pieces of wood and a rust bucket, and without anyone having fallen into depts, there are now two nice dwelling places and all what is required and since no debts can be left behind any time, since no strings attached, can be used by Noble Ones if passing by, or those following them.

Who ever thinks to give into would be good, can do, if not expecting something back with most benefit.

The same is here. What ever one is able to sacrifice toward Nibbana can be left behind here. Every thought of strategy beside only this, will bind back if not doing in the sphere in which one has gained certain liberality already. It's total wise just sacrifice of what is takes as own already and not wishing to gain to give at first place. By giving at first place the better tools will be gained naturally. Nobody meets at the tripple Gems to become bound to wordly matters, and if such is happening, and increase, then it's outside, if not pulling toward giving up struggle with the raw and after the refined, step by step.

There will be thousands of allurement on the way, when ever old creditors/lender will touch via eye, ear, nose... intelect "Come, it was much easier the way you used to gain pleasure. Why burden you self, come, eat."

Ultimative there are no others who can bind us, it's just because we give credits to the giver of not lasting things, and by receiving this pleasure, having got used to it over long long time, don't see the backwards, we have to come again and again, not because someone else forces us, because of indebt (upadana) to the sense and their objects, nurishing, entertaining, holding on them (upadana). Yet it is by proper use of proper food, proper entertaining, with proper aspiration that desire and debt toward food, entertaining can be abounded totally.
Posted by: Danilo
« on: March 25, 2018, 09:25:06 AM »

Bhante, in another thread, regarding the means and tools to lend service and produce gifts out of generosity, you wrote:

If liking to use other means, ways... just be sure that they are either consciously given for that purpose or the own. If others would need to own certain tools as well, to work further, and it would require them to accumulate debts and dependency to third, it might be not the best way.

It's not clear to me how the use of a commercial third party service/product may incur in debt. Assuming that a commercial third party service/product was obtained through legal means (there is no break of precept) to produce a gift or lend a service for the practice of dana. In such situation, what/where is the debt? what/where is the dependecy?

Posted by: Johann
« on: March 19, 2018, 01:00:14 PM »

* Johann : Sadhu for correcting the OPs dirty spots Nyom Danilo

Today morning my person thought "where should my person share this sample", reflecting a "lesson" on debts toward Nibbana or world, cecently given.

Yesterday Upasaka Keomony attended my person on alms round. He had not eaten, actually wanted to by food and donate it, which was refused to be received.

As we came back, he gave all he had taken care before left, leaving my person take his meal. Thinking he might be scared, probably would prever it to buy his onw food, my person, after some winks, desided to make a share before, took the half of the alms bow aside and putted it downstairs on the steps.

Later, as he was up to leave, we had talked about debt toward world and toward Nibbana, also about the problem of food and it's need, he pointed on the food he had not touched. "Nyom, it would be good if you take it, since it has been sacrificed toward Nibbana, toward the tripple Gems. If you go down and prefer to order another, than you increase the debts to the world".

After he found out that my person eats only once, does not store food and that it was already enough, he told to eat it on the way. So he took a an old leave from a tree, took some rice on it and dedicated it to the devas and place-holder under the tree, removed some red-ants from the dishes and packed it in a bag.

If he either used it at least, or thought to give it away, or prefered to by more pleasant food at least... decided to make debts toward Nibbana or Mara, who knows.

It's not always that defilement try to display modestly but are actually after "win" or "win-win" ideas.

It's off course also of no good in cases where one might think "it's better to gain pleasure by increasing debts toward those who lead to a good". That is why there are often so many animals around places where monks and laypeople enjoy pleasur together, thinking on a "win-win" solution.

So if just after pleasure, aviod to use the Gems as givers of such, even there are some in robes but actually not toward the path.

This is by the way also the reason why such as Dhamma-dealer and Dhamma-consumer appear, paying and receiving in common ways of trade to bind to the world, and, yes, love to look for pets... cuddle and hug Mara where ever he appears.

This teaching should be also a reminder that a gift with a thought "well I can (will) organize my self another (or) better", when giving something does not reduce the pain on earth, does not lead toward Nibbana.

But if one instead of enjoyng sensual of unskilfull entertainment sacrifices that (without thinking," I will enjoy later") time or possession toward the Gems, that does neither make him poor in this world, nor in the next, but is directed toward beyond, here or at later time.

It is of no benefit if just Buddhadasas are left in this world, slaves of a secular Religion. For the Buddha and his Noble disciples do nor accept slaves at all. So they would become the followers of images and form believing that the objects of sense are the refuge to escape.

It goes deep and really releasing this topic and is dedicated to learn to catch the snake at it's very head, step by step.

Mudita and Anumodana!
Posted by: Johann
« on: April 11, 2017, 01:39:33 PM »

* Johann Since the last approach here came up while reflecting certain cases having come accross and devoted to supply such places like the owner Steve Pame, it would be goo, out of compassion to inform him about the talk, since my person lacks on possibilities for now.
Posted by: Johann
« on: April 08, 2017, 11:25:45 AM »

For any relationship you mantain, which means on whom or what group you relate, seek entertainment, seek for nourishment, seek for joy, for livelihood... you are accumulating debts.

So if you keep getting involved with people who are complacent with their own defilements, which hold aims concerning worldly matters, this will pull you in to their direction.

In the same way, if you keep getting involved with the Noble Ones, this will pull you in to their direction.

Even if you, for example, like to study the good Dhamma, but keep associating with people which aim worldly matters, you would hardly be able to properly make use of this knowledge for liberation. Why? Because you have been building up debts towards people who is not on the Noble Path, they aim things not related to the Path and you will hardly find a way to get off this debts since they would not easily give room to you while you keep take sustenance in this relationship.

That is why one should not "think like a thief", if he actually knows the right way, since it's natural that thiefs would get caught.

It's really better to be patient and seek for support of the Noble Ones insted to think being the smart one and end up walking away driven by a outsider's wordly interest.

As for those not capable to distinguish between the Noble Ones and the traders of Dhamma at first hand, be patient and observe with attention while living together. And in the meantime, serve, serve and serve. Don't think you can just keep walk foward if you are in debt.

It's Seldom to gain a opportunity to have Nissaya with the Noble Ones and those who follow them, and even more seldom to have Upanissaya and maintain a relationship with them.

No wonder that it's easier when greed arises, to just *click, click* let the Google or the crowd-work make the job, let traders be honored for their trades, appealing to StackExchange to solve your "needs".

In that way one stays a slave of this world and aside of singing the gospels of desire alongside with others slaves, there is not much joy working on such fields, never gaining really anything substantial or a possibility of release.

Once having entered the right path, you are no more able to fall away, the debts in regard the Noble Ones, Liberation, would surpass the remaining debts regarding worldly matters, knowing this or not, it is what is called Pathwinner. Having reached its end, you gain the short bliss of the first fruit, which is really yours, without debts, accruing even later one after death. Knowing or not, you are already on the track of the next path or fruit. Even if not resolved knowingly and putting effort in foward progress, next path or fruit is gained latest after death.

In the case of you might still be get carried away by those who are not on the Path, indulging and associating with them, be really careful since from a Pathwinner your might turn into a Streamloser and from now on maybe be bound to the assemblings of others Streamlosers.

So if you are wise, even if you are not yet inclined to give and serve in advance, it's better to only take from those already on the Path or their followers. In any case, if one is unable to figure out for himself, the wisest approach is serve, serve and serve in whatever relationship you may have. This will come in handy whenever there is a opportunity to associate with the Noble Ones.

Even if you are a person not capable to gain path or fruit in this life, nevertheless if you have the luck to meet a Noble one or his group and serve by adopting their ways and emulate their habits you would accumulate debts in direction to liberation and later on, retake the path with the merits made in the previous life.

When small children are trained here by their parents to pay respect or to put some alms into the bowl of a passing monk, although it's clear that those bright little Devas does not really know what they actually are doing, just like most of their parents as well, it always causes a lot of sympatic joy to my person seeing how "blessed" they are.
Meeting other houses where children only learn how to get rid of the uneasiness of have a beggar at the front of the house, following their parents behaviour: "Ven. Sir, we haven't cooked rice yet we are busy ...we eat already... today we have nothing to give.", little ones without shame, just like the little devas, but in the other way around, often it fills my person with a lot of compassion (karuna), after all, it wouldn't be easy for them to find the Dhamma in this life.

Work for you present and future condition, nourish good qualities, stay with the suggested basic training, give reason/cause for ground/fundation (upanissayapaccayena), for better relationship in the future.

All one could do for you for now, is tell all this again and again.

If you walk out in search for an answer, driven by a personal desire and overestimation of yourself, "I can", crossing the legs without respect and gratitude, associating with fools, then you would be just fooling youself since this is simply self sabotage, holding to the idea that the transcendent attainment can be gained on ordinary paths of the world.

There is a nice story that might be good to illustrate the issue. Although this story could have be a case of streamlosing at some point.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Story of Thera Pilotikatissa 

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (143) and (144) of this book, with reference to Thera Pilotikatissa.

Once, Thera Ananda saw a shabbily dressed youth going round begging for food; he felt pity for the youth and made him a samanera. The young samanera left his old clothes and his begging plate on the fork of a tree. When he became a bhikkhu he was known as Pilotikatissa. As a bhikkhu, he did not have to worry about food and clothing as he was in affluent circumstances. Yet, sometimes he did not feel happy in his life as a bhikkhu and thought of going back to the life of a lay man. Whenever he had this feeling, he would go back to that tree where he had left his old clothes and his plate. There, at the foot of the tree, he would put this question to himself, "Oh shameless one! Do you want to leave the place where you are fed well and dressed well? Do you still want to put on these shabby clothes and go begging again with this old plate in your hand?" Thus, he would rebuke himself, and after calming down, he would go back to the monastery.

After two or three days, again, he felt like leaving the monastic life of a bhikkhu, and again, he went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate. After asking himself the same old question and having been reminded of the wretchedness of his old life, he returned to the monastery. This was repeated many times. When other bhikkhus asked him why he often went to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate, he told them that he went to see his teacher[1]. Thus keeping his mind on his old clothes as the subject of meditation, he came to realize the true nature of the aggregates of the khandhas (i.e., anicca, dukkha, anatta), and eventually he became an arahat. Then, he stopped going to the tree. Other bhikkhus noticing that Pilotikatissa had stopped going to the tree where he kept his old clothes and his plate asked him, "Why don't you go to your teacher any more?" To them, he answered, "When I had the need, I had to go to him; but there is no need for me to go to him now." When the bhikkhus heard his reply, they took him to see the Buddha. When they came to his presence they said, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu claims that he has attained arahatship; he must be telling lies." But the Buddha refuted them, and said, "Bhikkhus! Pilotikatissa is not telling lies, he speaks the truth. Though he had relationship with his teacher previously, now he has no relationship whatsoever with his teacher. Thera Pilotikatissa has instructed himself to differentiate right and wrong causes and to discern the true nature of things. He has now become an arahat, and so there is no further connection between him and his teacher."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 143 Rare in this world is the kind of person who out of a sense of shame restrains from doing evil and keeps himself awake like a good horse that gives no cause to be whipped.

Verse 144: Like a good horse stirred at a touch of the whip, be diligent and get alarmed by endless round of rebirths (i.e., samsara). By faith, morality, effort, concentration, discernment of the Dhamma, be endowed with knowledge and practice of morality, and with mindfulness, leave this immeasurable dukkha (of samsara) behind.
 1. teacher: here refers to Pilotika's old clothes and his begging plate; they are like a teacher to him because they imbued him with a deep sense of shame and put him on the right track.

As one can see, it's actually gratitude that kept Pilotikatissa on the right track, and it would be dangerous if he starts to think that he no longer owe any debt, feeling to be apparently free from more obligations, that could have lead him to abandon a good relationship.

So, once you see that you no longer go visit your "teacher" anymore (the one who forced you to stay on the right track) it would be wise to ask yourself if this is really already the right time to do it and if you already have learned the proper skill and wisdom so that you would never find yourself back with old torn clothes and rusty plate walking around sooner or later, ever since.

May all beings be able to develop and maintain great appreciation, great esteem for their good "teacher" and always see when the "whip got lifted" whenever the usual visit to him take place again and again.

Of course it's hard in times of stories like Krabat to see who is the real fools and who is the master of compassion at the end. Two days ago Atma read about a junior monk who had killed an elder who tried to lead him back on the right track. The murderer thought that the elder was doing this out of ill-will: telling him that it's not proper to hang around in cafes interacting with common people and seeking fun. By being carried away by highly tempting words, the junior monk followed Mara (his defilements) and drove a knife into "his father".

That is the result of assosiating with fools. Do not wait until a act like this happen to learn the lesson. Elderly are used to get "killed", so you would just harm youself in indulge and adopt the habits of outsiders by seeking relations with them.
Posted by: Johann
« on: February 25, 2017, 11:58:35 AM »

Some days ago, Atma asked the village priest who was talking with two monks, eager to learn pali blessings with much bias towards the Brahmanic purposes: "What does Nyom think, which is better, which has release as option? If one accumulates debts torwards kalyāṇamittā or worldlings?" He tried to avoid the question, while the Abbott quickly answered: "It's better to fall in debt with Kalyāṇamittā" and then the priest kept mulling over the question, avoiding to give his own answer. Atma asked once again: "If Nyom is hungry, needs food, and there are two people having rice, a kalyāṇamittā or a worldling, to whom is better to ask if needed, receive and make debts?" He tried to avoid another time and started to explain, arguing thinks like the good friend might not have food to share or is poor... so he was asked again and told that both are standing in front having a portion of rice left.
Then he answered: "Of course its better to take from a Noble person or one on the way to that." "Why", Atma asked. "Because he would never demand something that is not good for me." "Yes, if you are in debt with good friends, all you could accumulate is certain pressure to do goodness, while the worldling would always pull you down and those debts are not easy to pay back without making more debts on another worldly way."

Now, even if people understand this intellectually, actually they do not like the ideia of get out of the circle of debts.

When we think on the Buddhas advices to his monks: "Better to eat hot iron balls than to receive a gift that demands a reward, not given free" (not a word by word recitation, it might be found in the Dhammapada) it is really not a light issue to do such thing, especially because it would block any kind of further progress in the monk's practice at the moment he is caught up in it. And since he is actually not able to pay back such demands, he either turns into a slave of his "sponsors" or he starts lose all his virtue little by little making one transgression after the other to be able to do what givers are wanting.

And do not think this is only a monk's issue, it is the same for lay people as well. Take from wordlings just what you are able to give back or start to let go of desires. If you are gifted to receive pure gifts by the Noble persons or those walking on the noble path, take it happily and you'll have a real good debt and nothing to fear out of it, actually things will get better.

Atma thought to share his thoughts since he just came across the truth that only a few people has little dust in their eyes.
"We prefer google and take CCs and download freely, since we like a lifestyle without restrictions and commitments..."

There is no way to help them since people with much dust in their eyes indulge in pleasure and lazy consuming without seen the burdens in it. They hide in "forests", "centers"... simply to enjoy sensuality and becoming along with other people with the same inclination, like the same food and keep making use of the easily given world's alms to provide them with what might be called a "eating together community" unwilling to subsist only with what is given.

It's hard to renounce, it's hard to not fall into debts with people willing to bind you and it's hard to understand and see from whom it would be good to receive gifts.

And that is the reason why one of Atmas favorite Suttas is called "Seclusion and not straighter "Good friend" since renunciation and good friend, outwardly and inwardly is the same thing.
At the same time this Sutta shows that a good friend would not hide any of his facets for which one could find out if he/she is or not a person on the path.
Whoever seeks for the ways and means of "villagers" does not keep his deeds unveiled, builds his own "mousetrap", a small or big kingdom like the "Ratenfänger" playing his flute, not open to discussion, not open to share his ups and downs, not open to let others see his faults, his ways of how he gains and gives, such a person can not be traced as somebody who would not be caught up in debts that would bind himself to the world.

Give up the illusion of freedom in this world and the notion of being able to take without having remorse as a result, for actually it will be a heavy burden later, though it seems to be no big deal right now.

Once really caught up, there is no escape without a lot of suffering and tears.

Nobody can burden a person on the path with his own personal wishes, so do not take that as an excuse to let yourself be carried away by your own defilements.