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Vihara => Open Vihara - [Offenes Vihara] => Topic started by: Johann on June 18, 2019, 08:07:31 AM

Title: [Q&A] Goal of liberation in yoga/meditation - Isn't it Boring?
Post by: Johann on June 18, 2019, 08:07:31 AM
[Q&A] Goal of liberation in yoga/meditation - Isn't it Boring?

Quote from: Nyom sundar asked (http://) on BSE
Goal of liberation in yoga/meditation - Isn't it Boring?

I see that the goal of yoga/meditation is liberation from the karma and from the birth/death cycle. People say that it is the ultimate happiness forever. But wouldn't that be boring and monotonous if there is happiness forever?

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

Venerable fellows,

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person to share a question and investigate it. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa   (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/homage_en.html) -

Householder sundar, interested,

this question is a very advanced one and the seek after lastig satisfying happiness, if not informed, binds so hard to suffering, but if seen the escape and the posibility trough human effort, turns one to refined, longer lasting and release, where such as boredom can not reach.

The carpenter Pañcakanga  (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.than_en.html)once asked the Buddha about the kunds of feelings who left him open a choice of the many kinds.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'”
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.than_en.html

It is right if one says, that happiness gained by Yoga (meaning "taking on the whole yoke", work) meditation alone could not be lasting satisfying, is no refuge, never under ones controll, nor really real, since it is always conditioned and conditioned phenomenas are actually not lasting. What ever happiness to gain requires work, sacrifices, pain, even when attained, to maintain it further. Yet ordinary pleasure, based on the five senses requires a lot of pain for very short pleasure, needed even as livelihood, thought on raw food, to be able to walk on and do not break apart. This raw food of sensuality does not only require on sacrifices but harm other and is mostly not voluntary given and so leads to more conflicts.

Contentment with low kind of happiness is much more subject to boredom in shorter and more harmful ways for oneself and others, so seek after refined is needed, and contentment here it enemy to find better or even release, lasting satisfation.

If one is in a palace, enjoys what ever senspleasure is avaliable, proper similies are needed so that one could find needed faith:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“...Even so but to a still greater degree, Aggivessana, is Prince Jayasena hemmed in, blocked, obstructed, enveloped by this mass of ignorance. Indeed, that Prince Jayasena, living as he does in the midst of sense-pleasures, enjoying sense-pleasures, being consumed by thoughts of sense-pleasures, eager in the search for sense-pleasures, should know or see or attain or realize that which can be known… seen… attained… realized by renunciation — such a situation does not exist. Had these two similes occurred to you, Aggivessana, for Prince Jayasena, Prince Jayasena naturally would have acted in the manner of one having trust in you.”
The Discourse on the 'Tamed Stage (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html)'
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html

If one maintains ones needed joy by meditation, it would not harm anybody, neither oneself (think on all the side-effects of sensepleasures on health and freedom lose by addictions), nor others (think that all sensepleasure harms endless beings and lives till foods for senses can be consumed). Jet of cource, since thist and greed after pleasure is not stilled, even if no more after raw sense pleasures, even when thinking on highest sensual pleasures, one gets bored with it, has no controll of it and the maintaining becomes burdensome and doubt, whether there is a better arises again: this very craving. Gaining every day ones beloved food, one gets sick of it, since the mind, not knowing release, searches always for more and anew. The refined food gained by the work in yoga-meditation, how ever, not only that it is always different and much more refined, has a lot of levels of fineness, satisfies more lasting, not only because it does not harm others and would thereby fast taken away and fought by others again.

Yet nevertheless this satifaction would break apart, so those work, yoga, has to be understood in two ways, one as a good livelihood, to gain a pleasent dwelling, one to investigate all kinds of pleasures and the need for gain, that all those states are not lasting, subject of aging, sickness and death.

Once somebody sees and understands that what ever state and retined happiness, existing, would nevertheless of no lastig satisfacion, seeing the disadvantages even in heavenly states of high conncentration, this is the point where the Buddha and Arahats would teach the Sublime Dhamma of the Noble Ones, the Four Noble Truth (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/index_en.html). to those tending to renouncing the meaningless seek after real happiness in the worlds.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/index_en.html) that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index_en.html); the noble truth of the origin of dukkha (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/index_en.html); the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/index_en.html); and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/index_en.html). But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."

Having listened with proper attention, attantion of what gives birth within, once this is penetrated, the cause clear seen, and by the right approach it's cause, not understanding, by seeing by one self, uprooted, one breaks into the deathless sphere, the unconditioned, having done the work, and at this point, no more work is needed, all done and lasting satisfaction attained. No more birth, aging, sickness and death, noting further for this world and by breaking up of the body, with death, finaly Nibbana has been gained.

Till then, after attaining the deathless, here and now, while still alive, one would spend much time in this Jhanas, states of concentration, as pleasant livelihood, next to live from alms to maintain body and give others a possibility for great merits.

That is why the follower of the Buddha chant daily: "N'atthi santi param sukham" 'No peace is higher as the heal of Beyond/Nibbana'

The Yoke of the Eightfold paths mastering is not taken on for further wandering on, but by seeing that what ever conditioned states can not be lasting satisfied, are pointless.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Yoga Sutta: Yokes (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.010.than_en.html)

Joined with the yoke of sensuality
    & the yoke of becoming,
joined with the yoke of views,
    surrounded by ignorance,
beings go to the wandering-on,
    heading to birth
        & death.
But those who comprehend sensuality
    & the yoke of becoming — entirely —
who have thrown off the yoke of views
    and are dispassionate
    toward ignorance,
disjoined from all yokes:
they — their yokes overcome —
        are sages
        indeed.

Right labor makes free!

Possible good to remark, that the path is not gained by concentration, but 'simply' by hearing the good Dhamma and proper attention, as for right concentration, fruit and release, the aim, once right view is gained, virtue purified, there is no more need of will (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than_en.html) required, and will be effected by the previous given causes:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse... ...rapturous... ...serene in body... ...experiencing pleasure... ...whose mind is concentrated... ...who knows & sees things as they actually are... ...who feels disenchantment... ...

..."For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.... ...Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than_en.html

Mudita & Anumodana
Title: Re: [Q&A] Goal of liberation in yoga/meditation - Isn't it Boring?
Post by: Johann on June 20, 2019, 09:14:19 AM

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

from Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile Discourse:

... "Furthermore, there is the case where a certain son of good family, out of conviction, goes forth from the home life into homelessness, [thinking,] 'I am beset by birth, by aging-&-death, by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs, beset by stress, overcome with stress. Perhaps the end of this entire mass of stress might be discerned!' Having thus gone forth, he encounters gain, offerings, & fame. He is not gratified with that gain, offerings, & fame, his resolve not fulfilled. He is not intoxicated with that gain, offerings, & fame, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves consummation in virtue. He is gratified with that consummation in virtue, but his resolve is not fulfilled. Because of that consummation in virtue he does not exalt himself or disparage others. He is not intoxicated with that consummation in virtue, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves consummation in concentration. He is gratified with that consummation in concentration, but his resolve is not fulfilled. He is not intoxicated with that consummation in concentration, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves knowledge & vision. He is gratified with that knowledge & vision, but his resolve is not fulfilled. Because of that knowledge & vision he does not exalt himself or disparage others. He is not intoxicated with that knowledge & vision, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves a non-occasional liberation. And it is impossible, monks, there is no opportunity, for that monk to fall from that non-occasional release. [1]

"Just as if a man in need of heartwood, seeking heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood, cutting away just the heartwood of a great standing tree possessed of heartwood, were to go off carrying it, knowing, 'heartwood.' A man with good eyesight, seeing him, would say, 'Ah, how this good man did know heartwood, did know sapwood, did know inner bark, did know outer bark, did know twigs & leaves! That's why he, in need of heartwood, seeking heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood, cutting away just the heartwood of a great standing tree possessed of heartwood, were to go off carrying it, knowing, "heartwood." Whatever heartwood-business he had with heartwood, his purpose will be served.'

"In the same way, monks, there is the case where a certain son of good family, out of conviction, goes forth from the home life into homelessness, [thinking,] 'I am beset by birth, by aging-&-death, by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs, beset by stress, overcome with stress. Perhaps the end of this entire mass of stress might be discerned!' Having thus gone forth, he encounters gain, offerings, & fame. He is not gratified with that gain, offerings, & fame, his resolve not fulfilled. He is not intoxicated with that gain, offerings, & fame, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves consummation in virtue. He is gratified with that consummation in virtue, but his resolve is not fulfilled. Because of that consummation in virtue he does not exalt himself or disparage others. He is not intoxicated with that consummation in virtue, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves consummation in concentration. He is gratified with that consummation in concentration, but his resolve is not fulfilled. Because of that consummation in concentration he does not exalt himself or disparage others. He is not intoxicated with that consummation in concentration, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves knowledge & vision. He is gratified with that knowledge & vision, but his resolve is not fulfilled. Because of that knowledge & vision he does not exalt himself or disparage others. He is not intoxicated with that knowledge & vision, not heedless about it, and does not fall into heedlessness. Being heedful, he achieves a non-occasional liberation. And it is impossible, monks, there is no opportunity, for that monk to fall from that non-occasional release.

"Monks, this holy life doesn't have as its reward gain, offerings, & fame, doesn't have as its reward consummation of virtue, doesn't have as its reward consummation of concentration, doesn't have as its reward knowledge & vision, but the unprovoked [2]awareness-release: That is the purpose of this holy life, that is its heartwood, that its final end."
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.029.than_en.html