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Open monastery, laity practice area- [Öffentliches Kloster, Laienpraxisbereich] (vata assama) => Admirable friend - [Großartiger Freund] kalyanamittata => Topic started by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 04:59:00 AM

Title: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 04:59:00 AM

Aramika   *

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[Original post:]


Welcome Avuso Vivek  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

My advice would be to study the suttas under the guidance of an arahant or a sekha (true kalyanamitta) if you are fortunate enough to find one. Otherwise use the Mahapadesa sutta (AN 4.180) as your guide to be able to filter out counterfeit dhamma from the true dhamma, arouse samvega for the breakthrough without slackening.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 05:21:19 AM
Quote from: ??
Otherwise use the Mahapadesa sutta (AN 4.180) as your guide to counterfeit dhamma from the true dhamma, arouse samvega for the breakthrough without slackening.

Should be corrected to:
Otherwise use the Mahapadesa sutta (AN 4.180) as your guide to filter out counterfeit dhamma from the true dhamma and arouse samvega for the breakthrough without slackening.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 20, 2019, 07:13:04 AM
 _/\_ aavusaon,

In my email to aavusa samana Johann, bymistake wrote as ,"meditated under s.n. goenka tradition but unsatisfied" instead, I was unsatisfied by that teaching that's why started self-meditation in forests/mountains as an ascetic.

I researched about suttas and found that only mulparirayavagga of Majjhima Nikaya can be considered to be meant for meditators or middle path or can be used to regenerate buddha's knowledge. I have read(within last 3 months) it from book by Rahul Sankrityayan (direct pali to hindi translation), still there is one chapter of Anangana Sutta which, because of mentioned superiority & inferiority among unenlightened beings, can create chaos among householders and homeless as well.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 08:08:37 AM
Avuso Vivek,
I am afraid meditating on your own for even a hundred years without a purified virtue and a view that is straight will not help you to make the breakthrough if you want to take advantage of the Buddha’s teachings. The only way to straighten your view is to know how to distinguish the counterfeit dhamma from the true dhamma, for which the Buddha gives Mahapadesa sutta (AN 4.180) as guidance if you don’t have a true kalyanamitta to guide you. As noted by the late Venerable Nanavira in his book, “Clearing the Path”, and I quote:

Quote from: ??
These books of the Pali Canon correctly represent the Buddha's Teaching, and can be regarded as trustworthy throughout. (Vinayapitaka:) Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga; (Suttapitaka:) Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theratherīgāthā. (The Jātaka verses may be authentic, but they do not come within the scope of these Notes.) No other Pali books whatsoever should be taken as authoritative; and ignorance of them (and particularly of the traditional Commentaries) may be counted a positive advantage, as leaving less to be unlearned.

This is well said by the venerable one, not badly said. It is connected with welfare, not unconnected.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 09:28:59 AM
It should be clarified that among the Dhammapada collections in the Canon, only the Dhammapada verses are trustworthy as belonging to the Buddha’s Teachings. The Dhammapada stories come from the traditional commentaries so any dhamma teachings in them should be cross-checked with the suttas and vinaya to filter out any counterfeit dhamma.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 20, 2019, 10:40:08 AM
As noted by the late Venerable Nanavira in his book, “Clearing the Path”, and I quote:

Quote
These books of the Pali Canon correctly represent the Buddha's Teaching, and can be regarded as trustworthy throughout. (Vinayapitaka:) Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga; (Suttapitaka:) Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theratherīgāthā. (The Jātaka verses may be authentic, but they do not come within the scope of these Notes.) No other Pali books whatsoever should be taken as authoritative; and ignorance of them (and particularly of the traditional Commentaries) may be counted a positive advantage, as leaving less to be unlearned.

This is well said by the venerable one, not badly said. It is connected with welfare, not unconnected.

Aside of the binld and foolish bias of the modern suicide tradition, which likes to deny their ancestors, isn't it simply another commentary from a person who really doesn't shine at all, Nyom saddhamma ? So how authentically are those approaches?

My person would't advice anybody to associate with suicide appovers, Jains, headless and other Nihilist, who are yet, so conceit in their views, still not dare to take what isn't given, not to speak from incapable of basic generosity put simply traders, householder increasing their debts till suicide (vi-bhava) remains as their last opinion, having block off all ways out with their ideas that gaining freedom wouldn't require getting in debts with the near supporter, the Sangha, teacher.

Ven. Nanavira is surely another good sample of a Yogi who was incapable to find good friends and has fallen into troubles by on oneside trading with the heritage while denying his parents. Dwelling alone with the scripts, which couldn't of course not point on and provoke out his defilments, he was another lost yogi.

To give the line of causes in poor outwardly, but given way further:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The shameless one without remorse becomes negligent It is not possible for the negligent one to dispel direspect, unruliness and evil friendship. It is not possisble for the one associating evil friends to gain faith, dispel stinginess and laziness. It is not possible for the lazy one to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. It is not possible for the unvirtuous one to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the teaching of the noble ones and dispel the reproaching mind. It is not possible for one with a reproaching mind to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and the derangement of mind. It is not possible for one with deranged mind to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. It is not possible for one with a sluggish mind to dispel the view of a self, doubts, and grasping virtues as the highest aim. It is not possible for the doubting one to dispel greed, hate and delusion. Without dispelling greed, hate and delusion it is not possible to dispel birth, decay and death.
Quote from: Tayodhammasuttaṃ (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,14.msg20672.html#msg20672)

This being the reason, being the cause, a faithful householder trains himself in straighten view by observing the Silas (vipassana) while training giving, letting go on it. More and more refined so that ones relation get more and more refined, to touch then punna kiriya vatthu, a borderland, Vatta, next the Noble domain and then, if free of outer debts, would leave home under the Sangha, a teacher, of this ancestorship.

So to get familar with the burdensome, troublesome, near friend (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8486.0.html) of the King, is very needed and can not be neglect or gained on other way by thief and in ways of ingratitude.

That's your family and you wouldn't gain another of what "deserveing". By ways of ingratitude you wouldn't abound kamma.

Maybe a good talk for one after being able to leave home in proper way, home is that where you gain your food (sense and thoughts), and turn toward a more refined, if coming to conclusion that the current relation harms yourself and others, willing to give up that food, at first place:


en:lib:authors:thanissaro:dhammatalks:181029_the_buddhas_relationship_advice.mp3


Ven Nanavira, btw., preferred PM, email and other hidden ways of trade as well and flew of the most governing principles and protection of the Sangha next to his near teacher, got in improper relation and dependency by it.

When your lasting relation is just a book and when you cut your self off from other relations, having long term denied them, then, when no more able to find ways further you may follow the exit of vi-bhava there as well. If this tradition of the Noble Ones would live on in this world without direct living relation, then the Buddha would have spend the rest of his life to writte is Dhamma into stones or by focus on sutta-central and do fondraising and trade to do so...

Sila, relay more and more on given, that what wears the lable "not for trade" and generosity, all the way till liberation.

When coming from vipassana, householder tradition, it works all by the opposit, "paying" just if feel indebt later, yet possible then run out already not only of all capacity by also off paccaya, means, merits, for proper trade toward Independency.

A topic that requires much self honesty, looking => vipassana there where not willing to look and hold a stand, feel annoyed.

How will you be able to let go in meditation, if not even able to give your face or stinginess of other kinds, headed all by ingratitude?

No need to study anything aside there if "pushed" to look where it could be seen.

You can not trust anything finally or absolute, yet still you need to relay on that which is in Khema domain or heading, pulling, toward it.

It should be clarified that among the Dhammapada collections in the Canon, only the Dhammapada verses are trustworthy as belonging to the Buddha’s Teachings. The Dhammapada stories come from the traditional commentaries so any dhamma teachings in them should be cross-checked with the suttas and vinaya to filter out any counterfeit dhamma.

  *head bend, looking forward* Don't relay on commentaries... and never tell the story about the circumstances something was said in this topic. "Here! Look another windmile-monster. Run! Don't eat it, come my way, I am already independend of food."

Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html
Peels & Husks

I'll give you a simple comparison. Suppose you've bought a banana or a coconut in the market and you walk along carrying it. Someone asks you, "Why did you buy the banana?"

"I bought it to eat it."

"But do you have to eat the peel, too?"

"No."

"I don't believe you. If you're not going to eat the peel, why are you carrying it too?"

Or suppose you're carrying a coconut:

"Why are you carrying the coconut?"

"I'm carrying it home to make a curry."

"And you're going to curry the husk too?"

"No."

"Then why are you carrying it?"

So. How are you going to answer his question?

Through desire. If there's no desire, you can't give rise to ingenuity, to discernment.

That's the way it is as we make an effort in our meditation. Even though we do this through letting go, it's like the banana or the coconut: Why are you carrying the peel or the husk? Because the time hasn't come yet to throw it away. It's still protecting the inner flesh. The time hasn't come yet to throw it away, so you hold onto it for the time being.

The same with our practice: Suppositions and release have to be mixed together, just as the coconut has a husk mixed together with a shell and the flesh, so you carry them all together. If they accuse us of eating the coconut husk, so what? We know what we're doing.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 20, 2019, 10:43:19 AM
You really have to think about why running around headless, without willing to give, yet still on search for food... how did this indebting came about? This desire for Not-being?

To seek out for like minded does change the fact that Uposatha of the Jains is still Uposatha of the Jains, Nyom Vivek , saddhamma , Grandfather Varado . It wouldn't work in hunter and collector ways and althought as well not much of glory, the Uposatha of the cowards still has openings toward the Ariya one and isn't that harmful and biased like pseudo-liberality in-liberal toward near relatives.

And where do you go now? Fedding on anonymous... in realms where Dhamma can not be gained. A perfect target for cheaters dwelling in resorts build by headless.

You would just appear again in another womb, relation, whether realizing it or not.

Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 20, 2019, 11:00:05 AM

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

The Story of Thera Radha

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (76) of this book, with reference to Thera Radha, who was at one time a poor old Brahmin.

Radha was a poor brahmin who stayed in the monastery doing small services for the bhikkhus. For his services he was provided with food and clothing and other needs, but was not encouraged to join the Order, although he had a strong desire to become a bhikkhu.

One day, early in the morning, when the Buddha surveyed the world with his supernormal power, he saw the poor old brahmin in his vision and knew that he was due for arahatship. So the Buddha went to the old man, and learned from him that the bhikkhus of the monastery did not want him to join the Order. The Buddha therefore called all the bhikkhus to him and asked them, “Is there any bhikkhu here who recollects any good turn done to him by this old man?” To this question, the Venerable Sariputta replied, “Venerable Sir, I do recollect an instance when this old man offered me a spoonful of rice.” “If that be so,” the Buddha said, “shouldn't you help your benefactor get liberated from the ills of life?” Then the Venerable Sariputta agreed to make the old man a bhikkhu and he was duly admitted to the Order. The Venerable Sariputta guided the old bhikkhu and the old bhikkhu strictly followed his guidance. Within a few days, the old bhikkhu attained arahatship.

When the Buddha next came to see the bhikkhus, they reported to him how strictly the old bhikkhu followed the guidance of the Venerable Sariputta. To them, the Buddha replied that a bhikkhu should be amenable to guidance like Radha, and should not resent when rebuked for any fault or failing.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 76: One should follow a man of wisdom who rebukes one for one's faults, as one would follow a guide to some buried treasure. To one who follows such a wise man, it will be an advantage and not a disadvantage.
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sut/kn/dhp/dhp.06.bpit#s-dhp-76

There are not useless and sometimes quite supportive to understands ones own situation, stories on topics like here. Not always for those direct involved but always for those observant, reflective and coming later accross as well.

One wouldn't gain relation to the Sangha if not having given into it previously.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 20, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Dear Bhante Johann,
I am the one who quoted the late Venerable Nanavira so any questions or points that need clarifications about my post would be more fruitful if directed to me. Bhante's opinion about Venerable Nanavira cannot help put any doubts Bhante have about my post to rest.

May Bhante please be more precise about what objections Bhante would like to raise about my advice to Avuso Vivek to rely on the Mahapadesa sutta in the absence of a true kalyanamitta as instructed by the Buddha in order to straighten his view. Is Bhante's objecting to cross-checking any purported dhamma against what is found in Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga of the Vinayapitaka; or Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada verses, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theragāthā and Therīgāthā of the Suttapitaka to make sure it is not counterfeit dhamma, or is Bhante objecting that the list of references is missing some books that are highly praised by the elders in Bhante's tradition?
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 20, 2019, 12:38:24 PM
 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

We mustn't fight or debate or argue. Whatever one likes s/he can write here ,it's better to read only for reader ,if having questions then ask otherwise if agree or not agree mustn't have any quarrel over such.

We all are free to put our ideas/faith here.

Aavusa Saddhamma,
I didn't feel the idea of books recommended inside your quote that's why didn't reply.

Why?
Because I have some strong arguments regarding few topics on Vinaypitaka, Majjhima Nikaya,... Regarding reading of AN 14.180 ,yes,  I am trying to find/look it over internet... still my preference is to remain dependent on core teachings of buddha which are 5 sheela at body & mind level, impermanence, 4 noble truths, 8 fold noble path, Anapaana . Along with this, I also self-practised meditation while doing free service(involving hard physical work at a religious place) during previous spiritual journey.

Namo Buddhaya,
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 20, 2019, 01:31:47 PM
Atma took all the bond Yogis here into the boat, Nyom. And knows well who said, yet it's "just" a common pattern that speaks.

Nyom Ebo. Again, my person "didn't fall from heaven", or say, even, the heaven had causes, to appear and has a way behind that you might not know yet, yet he knows where you are an what your troubles causes are. Atma lifes already without Nissaya and such isn't gained, can not be maintained, it neglecting ones family, culture.

May Nyom take his list and prove it further. First to fall: Theragata, -gita. Secound, Ittivuttha ("that has been said"), Dhammapada... Vinaya... oh, it falls all off, is dependent originated, compiled carried on. And then? After having cut off yourself and it turns out that the great love is also impure?

If really having found the other shore, would you shout back "don't use this boot, it's a manufactured, subject to break."

Your parents are not able to keep you from destroying your heritage and act for your own way's cut off. There are many still on household and releations depending fools around, resting in luxurious resorts stolen from the Gems, who use other householders conceit to maintain the trade on cultur-marxism.

Where and from whom did Nyom get all his ideas and inspirations? From people who had left all societies or from people who even live in improper dependency?

It would really not help if just wishing to run away from what is a formation, but to leave one level after another, with gratitude to a refined.

It's really not for ones benefit f having heared of liberty caught in a prison and urge for revolts, suggesting others are the reason for ones situation, although modern and worlds heros ways, lead neither to better for oneself nor to anybodies release.

Does Nyom desire to become another fool like Ghandi, Malcom, Stalin, Hitler,, Pol Pot, Devadatta, to win favor and then ending up in hell by one self?

A father can advice a child, introduce one into tradition, but he has no control over the child whether understanding, maintaining and make proper use of it, for own liberation and to leave a trace behind in the world.

So follow the schizophrenia and suicide tending and improving ones or those who give one a place of stand, a tradiin and healthy food till the path can be walked alone to it's end?

Are you able to relay just on one Dhamma, when hearing it, finally renounce with no return?

Or are you, and Atma uses you and not Nyom, still after food providing for habitual home, nurishing ones own stand, "this and nothing else".

Meanwhile my person will go on to care on to do some housekeeping, prepear given Dhamma to be easy read and shareable while the transcendent Yogis may care about higher as thinking deserving and earned rightly already ... one living in a palace or leaving home, yet still the keys in ones bag, havn't met the four messages, will again and again relay on "bad" friend...

If a father would likes his sons to go through the same hardshipps, of course he wouldn't tell stories of the past in relation with releasing Dhamma, but just the stories, let them find out by huge suffering by themselves.

May you all find time to investigate links and sidestories to get always a broad and clear picture of your ancestors, parents, great teachers and not only use them off for own ideas.

If you are smart, try to follow the other Brahmas here, doning services, focus on Sila and giving into rather to defend positions or worship ones fake modesty dwelling in self-pitty.

Become a skilled servant, giver to loosen the gross conceit. Vipassana needs falling for first and observes that by doing. From cross to fine, one single Dhamma, pattern.

mudita
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 20, 2019, 01:40:48 PM
It should be clarified that among the Dhammapada collections in the Canon, only the Dhammapada verses are trustworthy as belonging to the Buddha’s Teachings. The Dhammapada stories come from the traditional commentaries so any dhamma teachings in them should be cross-checked with the suttas and vinaya to filter out any counterfeit dhamma.

Did Nyom saddhamma cross-checked, reflect, the above Dhammapada commentary story? Maybe he likes to share particular on it, some self - reflections. Where he sees "him" and what he seens in relation with release. Right here and now, timeless.

Most modern, not thinking on their things first, on own duties in their relations, may assume that the old Brahmin has rights and the bad have been the monks not giving. But actually it's because he had already feeded Nissaya previous, he could gain his teacher. Note that most teaching are toward monks to correct and turn out into poision if contexts is missused.

There are many teachings included here and here in this tread, for many different relations but not seen if no proper attention and wrong stand, mistaken.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 21, 2019, 04:07:20 AM
Dear Bhante Johann,
It is still difficult for me to decipher Bhante's main objections but from what I can gather from Bhante's responses, Bhante's main objections are that:

For objection #1, Bhante need not worry as the sound core will stand the test.

For objection #2, I have already pointed out the Thera sutta (AN 5.88) which discusses the two types of elders to Bhante in another thread. There are elders who do not see the dhamma so they think that more teachings need to be added to make the dhamma complete. Perhaps the following excerpt from the Pasadika sutta can also help Bhante to understand that pointing out what is true dhamma from what is not true dhamma need not be seen as a sign of disrespect to the elders:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

“Udaka Rāmaputta5 once made this statement: ‘Seeing, one doesn’t see.’ And what is it that, ‘seeing, one doesn’t see’? One sees the blade of a well-sharpened razor, but not the edge of the razor. This, Cunda, is called, ‘seeing, one doesn’t see.’ But this statement of Uddaka Rāmaputta is base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable, dealing only with a razor.

“But how would one, speaking rightly, say, ‘Seeing, one doesn’t see’? One speaking rightly, would say just this: ‘Seeing, one doesn’t see.’ And what is it that, ‘seeing, one doesn’t see’? Such a well-expounded, entirely complete, well-proclaimed holy life, consummate in all its aspects, complete in all its aspects, with nothing lacking and nothing in excess: This is what one sees. One doesn’t see, ‘If this were taken away from here, it would become purer.’ One doesn’t see, ‘If this were added here, it would become more complete.’ This is called, ‘seeing, one doesn’t see.’

“Cunda, if one speaking rightly were to say, ‘a well-expounded, entirely complete, well-proclaimed holy life, consummate in all its aspects, complete in all its aspects, with nothing lacking and nothing in excess,’ he would, speaking rightly, say it of this: ‘a well-expounded, entirely complete, well-proclaimed holy life, consummate in all its aspects, complete in all its aspects, with nothing lacking and nothing in excess.’

That this Holy Life May Long Endure

“Therefore, Cunda, with regard to the qualities I have taught, having directly known them, you should all, having assembled & gathered together, recite & compare6 meaning with meaning, expression with expression, so that this holy life may long endure & remain steadfast for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of the multitude; out of sympathy for the world; for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of human beings & devas. And which are the qualities I have taught that you should all, having assembled & gathered together, recite & compare meaning with meaning, expression with expression, so that this holy life may long endure & remain steadfast for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of the multitude; out of sympathy for the world; for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of human beings & devas? The four establishings of mindfulness, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for awakening, the noble eightfold path.7 These are the qualities I have taught that you should all, having assembled & gathered together, recite & compare meaning with meaning, expression with expression, so that this holy life may long endure & remain steadfast for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of the multitude; out of sympathy for the world; for the benefit, welfare, & happiness of human beings & devas. In them, you should train yourselves harmoniously, cordially, without dispute.

“If one of your fellows in the holy life should speak of the Dhamma in the Saṅgha, and if the thought occurs to you, ‘Friends, this venerable one has grasped the wrong meaning and picked up the wrong expression,’ you should express neither delight nor scorn. Neither delighting nor scorning, you should say to him, ‘With regard to this meaning, friend, there are these expressions or those expressions. Which are the more pertinent? And with regard to these expressions, there is this meaning or that meaning. Which is the more pertinent?’

“If he should say, ‘Friends, with regard to this meaning, these expressions are more pertinent than those; and with regard to these expressions, this meaning is more pertinent than that,’ then he is neither to be praised nor disparaged. Neither praising nor disparaging him, you should show him how to examine that meaning & those expressions.

“If another one of your fellows in the holy life should speak of the Dhamma in the Saṅgha, and if the thought occurs to you, ‘Friends, this venerable one has grasped the wrong meaning but picked up the right expression,’ you should express neither delight nor scorn. Neither delighting nor scorning, you should say to him, ‘With regard to these expressions, there is this meaning or that meaning. Which is the more pertinent?’

“If he should say, ‘Friends, with regard to these expressions, this meaning is more pertinent than that,’ then he is neither to be praised nor disparaged. Neither praising nor disparaging him, you should show him how to examine that meaning.

“If another one of your fellows in the holy life should speak of the Dhamma in the Saṅgha, and if the thought occurs to you, ‘Friends, this venerable one has grasped the right meaning but picked up the wrong expression,’ you should express neither delight nor scorn. Neither delighting nor scorning, you should say to him, ‘With regard to this meaning, friend, there are these expressions or those expressions. Which are the more pertinent?’

“If he should say, ‘Friends, with regard to this meaning, these expressions are more pertinent than those,’ then he is neither to be praised nor disparaged. Neither praising nor disparaging him, you should show him how to examine those expressions.

“If another one of your fellows in the holy life should speak of the Dhamma in the Saṅgha, and if the thought occurs to you, ‘Friends, this venerable one has grasped the right meaning and picked up the right expression,’ saying, ‘Excellent,’ you should express delight & rejoice in his statement. Expressing delight & rejoicing in his statement, saying, ‘Excellent,’ you should say to him, ‘It’s a gain for us, friend, a great gain, that we see a venerable one like you who has entered into the meaning and the expression in this way.’
Quote from: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN29.html

/me : dquote bbc added
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 21, 2019, 06:07:02 AM

Aavusa Saddhamma,
I didn't feel the idea of books recommended inside your quote that's why didn't reply.

Why?
Because I have some strong arguments regarding few topics on Vinaypitaka, Majjhima Nikaya,... Regarding reading of AN 14.180 ,yes,  I am trying to find/look it over internet... still my preference is to remain dependent on core teachings of buddha which are 5 sheela at body & mind level, impermanence, 4 noble truths, 8 fold noble path, Anapaana . Along with this, I also self-practised meditation while doing free service(involving hard physical work at a religious place) during previous spiritual journey.

Namo Buddhaya,

Āvuso Vivek,
As stated in the Pāsādika sutta I quoted, the core teachings of the Buddha are the bodhipakkhiyā dhammas, namely The four establishings of mindfulness, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors for awakening, the noble eightfold path. The list of references I provided are well in conformity and free from patchworks with respect to these core teachings.

May Āvuso Vivek feel free to make known any doubts or perplexities that may have arisen from the topics he has investigated on Vinaypitaka, Majjhima Nikaya... so far. Perhaps some experts on the dhamma and vinaya on this forum can help Āvuso Vivek to overcome his doubts or perplexities.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 21, 2019, 06:11:51 AM
Good, Nyom saddhamma .

If knowing, seeing, then, knowing and seeing to relay on what and whom, may Nyom wander on well.

As it might be that it happens fast to do not grasp the meaning and attach wrongly grasped, knowing and seeing just as far as one as came in touch, to something and someone.

As one perceives, one thinks. Of what one holds to, goes after, there he arives, stays, and turns around.

It's, how ever, for possible needed improvement, to take also the occassion here, as the story around "Whom to follow", dhp 76, for ones reflection, with one, on his journey. But that, this suggestion, and those before, are just another comments, maybe even found in older statement, delivered and maintained by the Savaka Sangha, the elders.

/me of(f)-topic: Btw., as it came to mind, did Nyom already visited Ven. Thanissaro and spend times with him. He is already old but more near,  Nyom, in many regard. For Nyom isn't that young either and things to far, in many regard, might be not in reach. It's good to do service to near elders in reach
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 21, 2019, 01:37:19 PM
Good, Nyom saddhamma .

If knowing, seeing, then, knowing and seeing to relay on what and whom, may Nyom wander on well.
Dear Bhante Johann,
It is certainly through knowing and seeing the dhamma that one sees the Buddha as well-proclaimed by the Buddha in the Vakkali sutta (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.087x.wlsh_en.html) (SN 22.87). And it is by relying on the dhamma that one has seen, dwelling with the dhamma as one's refuge, that the stream of dhamma leads one onwards (opanayiko).

On the topic of elders, the Elder Venerable Ananda proclaims it so beautifully in the Ananda Theragatha as follows:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning. This is the root of the holy life, therefore one should be an expert on the Dhamma.

The bhikkhu who delights in the Dhamma, who rejoices in the Dhamma, meditating on the Dhamma, recollecting the Dhamma, does not fall away from the true Dhamma.

/me
Good, Nyom saddhamma
(Btw., as it came to mind, did Nyom already visited Ven. Thanissaro and spend times with him. He is already old but more near,  Nyom, in many regard. For Nyom isn't that young either and things to far, in many regard, might be not in reach. It's good to do service to near elders in reach)

(Yes, I met Bhante Thanissaro last year. The venerable one comes to my part of town once a year. There are other venerable elders from the Ajahn Chah lineage closer to my part of town who provide opportunities for fulfilling lay disciple duties towards the bhikkhu sangha.)

/me : link added, Dhamma quote proper put, bbc's corrected
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 21, 2019, 02:06:05 PM
Truly, Nyom Ebo ( saddhamma ): One who sees the Dhamma, sees the Arahat. One who sees the Arahat, sees the Dhamma.

Such one has no more doubt, does no more depend to guided to fail in judging in regard of the Refuge and Aim.

And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.

Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Thag/introduction.html), yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.

And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

This to should be considered well, if wishing to gain real liberal, as long not rightly perceived an Arahat, the Saddhamma when having fallen in rage "Only what I heard from the Buddha direct, is true and else counterfeit"

/me : It's not possible to get a person known it not living together, trade, discuss and go through hardships, and it was asked in relation of Nyoms desire of going forth, since Bhante is the only person traceable in the west, who could transport very basics of the ancestor into the West, able to take on the burden to dwell nevertheless under far outsider with strong wrong views, and it will disappear again after he will disappear. My person does not think that Nyom could find any authentic guide in original culture areas who could bring him down on earth, there where right view can be gained unshakeable, tamed.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 21, 2019, 08:00:19 PM
One who sees the Dhamma, sees the Arahat. One who sees the Arahat, sees the Dhamma.
Sādhu, sādhu, sādhu Bhante.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
What Bhante says, accords with what the Buddha says in the Vakkali sutta:
One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.

Quote from: ??
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid. In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: ??
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Thag/introduction.html), yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.

Quote from: ??
And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

Sādhu Bhante. If I may add the obvious from the Pāsādikā sutta excerpt I quoted about two other destroyers of learning: One who deducts anything from the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be purer", and one who add anything to the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be more complete".
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 21, 2019, 08:38:53 PM

Quote from: Johann
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid.
Habitual Don Quichote, could one say on this  :) Such is called traumata. And how could a no-sekha-no-asheka ever know as long not gained stream.

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: Johann
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Thag/introduction.html), yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.
A beloved source of forest romantiker... Should we put it now in the trash basket, in many regards not so fitting to the main Nikayas?

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
Quote from: Johann
And in regard of "should not destroy the learning", in regard of commentars: Two people slander the Buddha: One how explains further of what does not need, and one who does not explain further, of what requires more explaining.

Sādhu Bhante. If I may add the obvious from the Pāsādikā sutta excerpt I quoted about two other destroyers of learning: One who deducts anything from the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be purer", and one who add anything to the well-proclaimed dhamma, thinking: "In this way it will be more complete".
Sadhu , Sadhu, and further short teachings (actually require often explaining in detail) in this manner are found in AN 1.098-139: Dutiyapamādādivaggo: The Second Section on Heedlessness (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.098-139.sang_en.html) and AN 1.140-149: Adhammavaggo: The section on wrong Dhamma (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.140-149.sang_en.html)

...and therefore, Nyom Ebo, good if doing carefull (in both directions, adding, censure), not knowing all shoes and finally barefoot all the way, whether in towns, under Brahmins, beggars,... and in the rocky wilds. Stumps and stones are like landmines possible hindrances in the world. The matter of stumps, stones, landmines isn't easy learned if still wearing shoes (and like mostly spoken also in simile manner for more refined spheres and useable in different context)

Only if seeing the Arahat it's not more or lesser supportive commentary, what ever found in this heritage carried by senses and their objects.

mudita
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 21, 2019, 10:04:29 PM

Quote from: Johann
And right and well said, if knowing the context:

"One should be the follower of one of great learning, and one should not destroy learning."

Since one may know one basked, 2, 3, a person skilled in Jhana, excels him, and even a Sota, those four, not to speak of an Arahat.
But for one, arrived at the stream, a learned of all kinds of attaining, if one of faith, bring additions of benefit for many.
I think knowing the baskets can at best help to straighten one's view if one knows which basket to avoid and which books in the basket collections to avoid.
Habitual Don Quichote, could one say on this  :) Such is called traumata. And how could a no-sekha-no-asheka ever know as long not gained stream.
I don't fully understand Bhante's language here but I think Bhante is wondering how one can straighten up one's view and become a saddhānusārī or dhammānusārī if one is not fortunate enough to get a true kalyāṇamitta's guidance. If this is Bhante's question, then the answer can be found in my post to Āvuso Vivek. It is only by relying on the Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga of the Vinayapitaka; and Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada verses, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theragāthā and Therīgāthā of the Suttapitaka.

Quote from: Upasaka Ebo
In the noble one's disciple, learning begins with sotāpatti. One can memorize and recite all the baskets and still be "an unlearned one, a worldling" (assutavā puthujjano}, like the spoon tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup. One the other hand, one who becomes a sotāpannā after hearing even just one sutta is said to be "a learned one, a noble disciple" (sutavā ariyasāvako), like the tongue tastes the flavor of the delicious dhamma soup.

Quote from: Johann
Remember the Theregatha is known to be "commentary" (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Thag/introduction.html), yet because so loved by "meditators" in the west, hold often very high.
I did not know that Bhante. It is a fine commentary indeed, by ones who know and see. A sound core that stands the test of the Mahāpadesa sutta.
A beloved source of forest romantiker... Should we put it now in the trash basket, in many regards not so fitting to the main Nikayas?
According to Buddha's instructions in the Mahāpadesa sutta, only dhamma that does not accord with the dhammavinaya belongs to the trash basket. The Theragatha and Therigatha are commentaries of Elders who know and see and accord well with the dhammavinaya and so belong to the saddhamma basket.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 21, 2019, 11:12:45 PM
Repeat-off-ender  :)

So guided by a suicide commentator, attached to western philosophy, Nyom Ebo thinks he can purify the t what elders transported till here, out of reason?

My person would dismantle the Thera/therigatha here (was pleased to see sime accounts on the matter some weeks ago, by Bhante Thanissaro), by means of the more fine Dhamma to make the bias visible, since nevertheless it would increase the view on different context, but reduce further faith toward the Sangha. A special the saddhānusārī would totally cur off by such approaches. Would Nyom lose much if Thag, Thig lands in the basket to put aside, he hold? Why, if dhammānusārī could it happen to do not trace the "shortcommings", even potent dangers within the collection of Elders "poems"?

There are as well many parts in the other "saddhamma's" "only this is true"  area causing easy wrong attention and give food for papanca.

It's not possible to follow the higher correct, the more refined, if the near next isn't right considered penetrated. It lead's sooner or later to the "Channa-punishment" or as told, easy to be caught by Devadattas hosts.

It's not so that destroying the danger of stumps and stones outside make one able to walk barefoot even in a uneven wildness. People who didn't penetrate the basic maths, although able to go fare, using their old merits, if enviroment changes, relay on merits is out of reach there, than they get lost even with simple tasks. So again, importand is the difficult, but importand friend (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8486.0.html), no short cuts here.

A main different between the newage-commentors and the old is, that they do not give into putting into aspects to lead on the path back "understand it in this way", but tend to cut of not only faith, but also to challange own defiements and skill to use given without destroying an old culture by replacing natural dangers with labor means of theory.

Did even the Sublime Buddha act in such ways, when seeing a son of good family bowing down to the six directions?

He could, on the risk to uproot any foundation of the young man, have success, yes, but he did not only just praise the safe bet. This so hard to take right view which is connected with merits, for the palast Yogies.

Nyom Vivek shortly tried the use the root-sequence (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than_en.html) teaching also to defend a position. The problem when misusing certain tools is, that althought they work in dependend areas, they leave one by holding on the root instead of understanding that it points toward uprooting the very root and that needs to be made by stages, the raw first. Otherwise finding oneself perceiveless caught in senseobjects, or as forest dweller full of desires, mulas, which eating off the mind. Thats not different here.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 22, 2019, 01:57:12 AM
Sorry Bhante Johann. Seems Bhante is back to speaking a language that I cannot follow. May Bhante make his objections to my post more precise if Bhante is seeking clarification. If Bhante is trying to convey a dhamma teaching in his post, may Bhante come down to my level and quote a few suttas to make his point so that I can get an idea about the message Bhante is trying to get across.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 11:53:42 AM
Maybe the commentary by a later doubt-destroyer helps to provoke defilements in ways that one is able to fall away from wrong concentration, here, no more holding on it, returning to it, gain release by giving up of what gives rise to remorse again and again, block from leaving home/stand for no more seeking after another then unbound:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

A Question (Solved by) Inference

Then King Milinda approached the Venerable Nagasena, greeted him and sat down at a respectful distance. King Milinda, anxious to know, anxious to hear, anxious to remember, anxious to see the light of knowledge, anxious to break down the lack of knowledge, anxious to find the light of knowledge, anxious to expel the darkness of ignorance, aroused extreme steadfastness and zeal and mindfulness and clear consciousness, and spoke thus to the Venerable Nagasena: “Revered Nagasena, have you ever seen the Buddha?”

“No, sire.”

“But have your teachers ever seen the Buddha?”

“No, sire.”

“Revered Nagasena, if you have never seen the Buddha, and if your teachers have never seen the Buddha, well then, revered Nagasena, there is no Buddha; the Buddha is not manifested here.”

“But, sire, did those former noble warriors exist who were the forerunners of your noble warrior dynasty?”

“Yes, revered sir; what doubt is there?”

“Have you, sire, ever seen the former noble warriors?”

“No, revered sir.”

“But have those who have instructed you, sire — priests, generals, judges, chief councilors — have these ever seen the former noble warriors?”

“No, revered sir.”

“But if you, sire, have not seen the former noble warriors and if your instructors have not seen the former noble warriors, where are the former noble warriors?”

“Revered Nagasena, articles of use enjoyed by the former noble warriors are to be seen, that is to say, the white sunshade, the turban, the shoes, the yak-tail fan, the treasure of the sword of state, and the couches of great price. By these we can know and can believe that the former noble warriors existed.”

“Even so, sire, we may also know and believe in this Blessed One. There is this reason according to which we may know and believe that there was this Blessed One. What is the reason? There are, sire, articles of use enjoyed by that Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, that is to say, the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five spiritual faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path.(1) By these the world with the devas knows and believes that there was this Blessed One. For this reason, sire, for this cause, because of this method, because of this inference it should be known that there was this Blessed One.”...

...“Revered Nagasena, make a simile.”

“As sire, a city-architect, when he wants to build a city, first looks about for a district that is level, not elevated, not low-lying, free from gravel and stone, secure, irreproachable and delightful, and then when he has made level there what was not level and has had it cleared of stumps of trees and thorns, he might build a city there. It would be fine and regular, well planned, the moats and encircling walls dug deep, the city gates, the watch-towers and the ramparts strong, the crossroads, squares, junctions and the places where three or four roads meet numerous, the main-roads clean, level and even, the bazar shops well laid out, the city full of parks, pleasances, lakes, lotus pools and wells, adorned with a wide variety of shrines to devas, the whole free from defects. When that city was fully developed, he might go away to another district. Then after a time that city might become rich and prosperous, well stocked with food, secure, successful, happy, without adversity, without accident, crowded with all kinds of people. When these people had seen the city, new, well laid out, without a defect, irreproachable, delightful, they would know by inference: 'Clever indeed is that city-architect who was the builder of the city.'...

...“Such people as these, sire, dwell in the Blessed One's City of Dhamma: those versed in the discourses, those versed in the discipline, those versed in the Abhidhamma, speakers on Dhamma, Jataka-repeaters, Digha-repeaters, Majjhima-repeaters, Samyutta-repeaters, Anguttara-repeaters, Khudaka-repeaters;(12) those possessed of morality, those possessed of concentration, those possessed of wisdom; those who delight in the factors of enlightenment, those with insight, those intent on their own goal; forest-dwellers, those living at the roots of trees, in the open air, on a heap of straw, in cemeteries, those who maintain a sitting posture;(13) those who are practicing rightly, those enjoying fruition, stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners, arahants; those with the threefold knowledge, those with the six super-knowledges, those of psychic power, those gone to the perfection of wisdom; those skilled in the foundations of mindfulness, the right efforts, the bases of psychic power, the spiritual faculties, the powers, the factors of enlightenment, the excellent path; meditation, the liberations, form and formlessness, and the attainments that are peaceful and happy. The City of Dhamma is peopled and packed, crowded and teeming with these arahants like a grove of reeds...
Quote from: http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sut/kn/miln/miln.5x.horn
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 22, 2019, 12:38:20 PM
Namo buddhaya,

Sorry for interrupting, but uptill now, I have been completely unable to understand what's going on over here... lots of lessons, long long paragraphs of discussion,...going above my head.

You may call me buddhu(below average minded).

Till now I could understand only welcome part, discussion on,"where should I meditate/go ". Also, yesterday I tried to point out that, "Everyone, Meditate Properly" and "Vivek is not a former wanderer of other sects, he may be called as former householder of hinduism, but is/was a wanderer of basic & oldest buddha dhamma.

Still, this Vivek doesn't belong to any sect or tradition or religion or boundary. This is the biggest problem of Vivek, strongly influenced by basic buddha teachings.

Also, this Vivek is completely against the fight between Jains and Buddhists of modern era because as per history research goes, Mahavira Jain was 20 year older in age than Samyak Sambuddha and they never met rather before going for Samadhi of around 41 days, Siddhartha met  few Mahavira students and was finally influenced by their thoughts about uncontradictory way to eternal happiness(by letting tanha,kaamna,etc. die out of their own thirst.) In India, even in books and tv series we read/watch these.

Sorry, I couldn't understand whatever is going on here. Also, dear Uncle Ebo, can you please give me online link to those core teaching, you mentioned in one of your reply?

/me : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 01:05:17 PM
Maybe useful to understand the different ways of modern, communist ways of dependency and that strong related to near Nissaya here:

Quote from: If willing to help the child, the "poor" the new, give to it's master, father! (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8388.msg13876.html#msg13876)
“If one who was previously a member of another religion comes naked, they should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.[4]

4. Commentary: “They should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.” Putting the preceptor in charge, they should search for a robe for him. And likewise with the bowl. So if the preceptor has a bowl and robes, he should be told, “Give them to him.” But if he doesn’t have them, and someone else wants to give them, he should give them to the preceptor, (saying,) “Make these yours and then give them to him.” Why? Sectarians are generally obstreperous. Saying, “The Saṅgha gave me my bowl and robes. Why should I be dependent on you?” he wouldn’t do as taught and admonished. But if his livelihood lies with the preceptor, he will do what he is told. So it is said, “They should search for a robe out of the preceptor’s funds.”

This, is related to teachings as well, since marxism destroys required dependency to really understand dependency, and the dukkha, first, to learn about goodness and attain proper gratitude.

Why? Sectarians are generally obstreperous. Saying, “The Saṅgha gave me my bowl and robes. Why should I be dependent on you?” he wouldn’t do as taught and admonished.


Fellows of Rodin Hoods havn't an ease and  are bound to become/stay orphans without protection.

If one thinks that running around naked, without face, the Uposatha of the Jains, is of glory than it's really difficult.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 22, 2019, 01:21:49 PM

/me : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)

Okay!😊 thanks for guiding.
Still, I couldn't find anyone worthy of calling Monk or Saint or Sanyaasi or Mahatma or Mahapurush. These addressings are for Noble Behaviour only, which are also called as qualities of a Sage.
 _/\_ buddhaya.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 01:36:37 PM

/me : changed Nyom into Dear Uncle (Nyom is used by monks to adress lay people, householder, only. Being older and also of virtue, Uncle, or Grandfather fits good)

Okay!😊 thanks for guiding.
Still, I couldn't find anyone worthy of calling Monk or Saint or Sanyaasi or Mahatma or Mahapurush. These addressings are for Noble Behaviour only, which are also called as qualities of a Sage.
 _/\_ buddhaya.

Conceit of the wanderers from other sects was not always aboundable, Nyom Vivek , even the Buddha couldn't help all or many and if mostly a lot of work. Story of Uruvelakassapa (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv01/mv.01.12.khem_en.html) is a good starter.

Good if looking good into the Mahavaga, also to check if ready to go into the depency under the Tripple Gems: Aññatitthiyapubbakathā
The Discussion of Those Previously a Member of Another Religion (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv01/mv.01.25.khem_en.html).

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“Then again one who was previously a member of another religion feels angered, displeased, and upset if dispraise is spoken of the teacher, the view, the persuasion, the preferences, the belief of the religion from which he has come over.

(Suttanta sects or idea-of-Buddhavaca-only sects or Householdersects or Robinhood-sects or "reformer-sects"... are similar regarded from the traditional Sangha, Savaka Sangha)

Also may Nyom take care not to fall into the area of Mv I 48: Theyyasaṃvāsakavatthu — The Case of Affiliation Through Theft (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv01/mv.01.48.khem_en.html), if thinking to go out without real Nissaya, Refuge, yet possible use their lable for seeks within Samsara, other objectives and because easy to live on it.

Focus only on ones duties and servicing, while observing precepts is the secure way within any relation, always able to change and leave as well: Mv I 18: Ācariyavattakathā — The Discussion of Duties Toward a Teacher (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv01/mv.01.18.khem_en.html). Where ever entering, importand not to increase unnecessarily debt. Generosity fist (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/bettertogive_en.html) help and Sensitivity through Generosity (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/sensitivity_en.html), Sila, service, is the field of Vipassana for one desiring for Nissaya and being in Dependency.

Whats your current dependency, food for body, food for thoughts for ease giver right now? Do you fullfill the duties in this relations? Did you perform giving into at first place, that able to make use rightly?

Why presenting shine face in areas of trade and sensuallity, yet if arround areas beyond that, stingy to give?

There have been those Ascetics at Buddhas times as well, practicing self-torture for a good time and then returned and enjoyed sensuallity again. That's not of much glory. Better to be honest about one state, saying "my arms are still to short" then to say "the dwell is to deep". Ignoring and denying dependency and it's need, running away as soon as burdensome, isn't really useful for one.

If leaving home without really firm in the Buddhas teacgings and conduct isn't wise if there are areas where Nissaya could be found, others the in areas where the Sasana died off, has been taken over by other sects for there objectives.

Not that it is impossible for all but very rare. So good to maintain good and given relations via this realm, yet the "roles" for success are the same.

Take your time to gain firm faith and prove all while carring about duties and Sila. Taking refuge is voluntary as giving is (can not be demanded) and requires conditions.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 02:33:19 PM
Or to give another sample for the cases only follow what fits to ones range, stand, stick holding on:

Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html
Picking Mangoes

If a mango is five meters off the ground and we want it, we can't use a ten-meter picking pole to pick it, because it's too long. We can't use a two-meter picking pole either, because it's too short.

Don't go thinking that a person with a PhD. has an easy time practicing the Dhamma because he knows so much. Don't go thinking that way. Sometimes people with a PhD. are too long.

Those possessing much knowledge, high intellectual, philosophers, yet not really practicing in the wild, tend to Nihilism. Those around in the wild, yet less knowledge and not well instructed, full of romanic, tend to eternalism.

Whether to put into sacrifices to shorten ones stick, or to give into to batch it longer, both generosities aren't easy done, holding on ones stand used to pick up fruits. And both are subject to their defilements strategy and tricks of saying "to short is likewise, to long is likewise" to stay where they are.

So good to learn to be honest toward oneself before polishing the bark of a tree standing in the forest while thinking it's the final work for the chair:

Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html
Making Tables & Chairs

It's good to make the mind pure and at peace, but it's hard. You have to start with the externals — your bodily actions and words — and work your way in. The path that leads to purity, to being a contemplative, is a path that can wash away greed, anger, and delusion. You have to exercise restraint and self-control, which is why it's hard — but so what if it's hard?

It's like taking wood to make a table or make a chair. It's hard, but so what if it's hard? The wood has to go through that process. Before it can become a table or a chair, we have to go through the coarse and heavy stages.

It's the same with us. We have to become skillful where we aren't yet skillful, admirable where we aren't yet admirable, competent where we aren't yet competent.

Otherwise you wouldn't get ride of

Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html
Mange

The Buddha said, "Monks, did you see the jackal running around here in the evening? Did you see him? Standing still it suffered. Running around it suffered. Sitting down it suffered. Lying down it suffered. Going into the hollow of a tree, it suffered. Going into a cave, it felt ill at ease. It suffered because it thought, 'Standing here isn't good. Sitting isn't good. Lying down isn't good. This bush isn't good. This tree hollow isn't good. This cave isn't good.' So it kept running all the time. Actually, that jackal has mange. Its discomfort doesn't come from the bush or the tree hollow or the cave, from sitting, standing, or lying down. It comes from the mange."

You monks are the same. Your discomfort comes from your wrong views. You hold onto ideas that are poisonous and so you're tormented. You don't exert restraint over your senses, so you blame other things. You don't know what's going on inside you. When you stay here at Wat Nong Pah Pong, you suffer. You go to America and suffer. You go to London and suffer. You go to Wat Bung Wai and suffer. You go to every branch monastery and suffer. Wherever you go, you suffer. This comes from the wrong views that still lie within you. Your views are wrong and you hold onto ideas that are poisonous in your hearts. Wherever you go you suffer. You're like that jackal.

Once you recover from your mange, though, you can be at ease wherever you go: at ease out in the open, at ease in the wild. I think about this often and keep teaching it to you because this point of Dhamma is very useful.

Right view, right path isn't gained by meditation, by dwelling in the forest, but by listening to the good Dhamma and proper attention ([what's-]birth-giving-[sequence] attention, yonisomanasikāra) while doing so, as Nyom saddhamma adviced Nyom Vivek before already. Yet is is by the 10 kinds of merits (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/wijesinghe/punna_en.html) that this kind of attention, vipassana-attention gets trained. Yet there are given possibilities for such (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7.msg244.html#msg244) given here, in this Ashram, forest, as well, is no access or inspiration elsewhere that help maintain the Nimitta of Sublime receiver, the Gems, liberation.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 22, 2019, 04:00:47 PM
Answer is simple to ,"not finding anyone worthy of noble words".

Good householder doing or trying to do right livelihood can be a sage(if s/he wants to go forth for Nibbana like prince Gautama & prince Mahavira). Noone(including me) is on right action and right livelihood path. Being said that, might be possible,  some are good householders but they themselves are in learning phase trying hard to gather and realize good material before declaring themselves as a Sage wearing robes of a Sage.

To, "thinking to go out without real Nissaya, Refuge, yet possible use their lable for seeks within Samsara, other objectives and because easy to live on it",
---
--Real Refuge is taken at mind level & can be seen by body, speech, thinking action. Merely by wearing a tag of any tradition doesn't mean that person is a Sage.

A sage can never go against anyone(i.e. can't raise objections) Untill enlightenment is reached.
Sage is one, who is free from worldly concerns(total eight),eg.  of praising or unpraising someone.
Sage is one who treats everyone at equal scale other than an enlightened one.
Sage is one who is muni (Noble silenced) to this world Untill enlightenment is reached.
Sage is one who doesn't depend upon boundaries, formalities, traditions, copyrights, etc.
Sage is one who doesn't dwell either among householders  or  among homeless and wanders in meditation till enlightenment.

------
------
An enlightened one can never praise or unpraise anyone, can never go against anyone,  can only point out false or self-contradictory thoughts/beliefs/doctrines.

Being said, above are few of the characterstics/qualities of a sage(a full time Meditator) and an enlightened one.

Personal experience says, Noone(including myself) falls in any one othe above 2 categories. Anone else might have met or is in touch with such but me.

 _/\_ buddhaya.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 04:52:40 PM
Nyom Vivek(a) (= detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" (of heart), discrimination (of thought) see Avatar-story (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,449.msg2877.html#msg2877)

No need for refuge, for guide, for Nissaya, if found the Unbond already for oneself. And again: selfhonesty and lack of capacity or not seeing the way, and guid, doesn't mean that there aren't. If ones conditions are weak, even it talking to Buddha one wouldn't see. Thats why a non-student, worldling is still capable to harm even the Buddha, kill even an Arahat, splitt Sanghas and also kill one parents (goodness giver).

A fool, knowing that being a fools, is called a wise to that extent.

So good to get Buddhas techungs and conducts first known and a good guide to streamenter is found here (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/study/into_the_stream_en.html).

Reading the links given first, then asking of what needs release from doubts, is usefull to be regarded as serious, next to end the notions of hypocritical modesty and facehidding, Nyom Vivek . Whould he trust his guide if running hidden around?

And total no to non-judgement, non-prais, non-blame, since isn't the whole path, the right judgenent of what is lower, equal or more sublime.

And this right judgement has to be learned from teachers: The Power of Judgment  (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/headandhearttogether/Section0006_en.html)
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 22, 2019, 07:15:20 PM
Ok! Now this I am able to understand ,simple and short  paragraph.

Yes, just had a quick look at links,
1. Avatar link is about face hiding or non-hiding.
2. This link is about fruits of meditation like sota, Anagaami, ....
3. This, I think is about sage pointing faults of a newbee.Maybe(I am not sure), sage in this link can an enlightened one.
 Still, reading completely ,might take time as eyes & head hurt on mobile.

To Right judgement::
I realized this about a sage and enlightened one during previous journey.
------It is as(in a very soft voice, it came)::

"Vivek, See from the eyes of a true sage(or just sage), who has not been enlightened till now. Why would such person divide society on high or low, why would such person raise any objection when s/he is not sure about The Truth? S/He would remain & will have to remain silence to dig this subconscious mind and remove defilements of self."

This was the moment, I stopped arguing or shutting-up everyone(anyone from any tradition) by pointing out their tradition's fault and follower's fault.

Again, second realization came as::

"Vivek, now try to see or analyze from the perspective from an enlightened one. Why would such Noble blame anyone or discourage anyone when knowledge has already been attained that, "I(ignorant one) was also committing mistakes due to ,'Ignorance'. Blaming someone when Ignorance remains will only increase fear"? Why should Ignorant one be blamed rather its, 'Ignorance' that has to be pointed-out, it's the faulty karma and the faulty direction(from Awareness/Ignorance to Ignorance) that has to be pointed-out?"
Question:: What about Devdutta?Why was he blamed?
Answer::
"Vivek, enlightened one never blamed any one, rather Ignorance in karma and the Ignorant Karma was pointed-out. Instead of blaming, Enlightened one always maintained compassion to such extent that everyone can come to a same scale. Remember, story about drunk elephant, story about Angulimaal, story about killers who came to kill, story about Ignorance itself(I was the one who was dwelled in Ignorance...even here ignorance was not blamed rather self-dwellness in ignorance was pointed out. Devdutta was never blamed by enlightened one rather, atlast his direction was pointed out"

Thanks for the links, reading them now, trying to understand ... if goes above head, will write here.

 _/\_ Buddhaya.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 22, 2019, 07:58:37 PM
Mudita

(Mara, Sect leaders... "enemies of the Buddha", arguing "harmony", equanimity is higher then Sacca, truth, judging right, often tried to silent and win over the Buddha with "a sage wouldn't do that", but that in detail, on what compassion leally means, later.)
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 08:26:28 AM
Namo buddhaya,

Sorry for interrupting, but uptill now, I have been completely unable to understand what's going on over here... lots of lessons, long long paragraphs of discussion,...going above my head.

You may call me buddhu(below average minded).

Āvuso Vivek,
Do not feel “buddhu” if you cannot understand what is going on here. I am sure Bhante Johann has experienced some benefits from the dhamma as taught in his tradition and is very contented with his experiences and quite convinced that we can all benefit from his dhamma as well. But you may just not be the right assembly for Bhante's long long paragraphs of discussions.

You will come across many other Dhamma speakers who are equally contented with their dhamma and equally convinced that others can benefit and so would want to share their dhamma out of compassion, hopefully without stabbing other dhamma speakers with verbal daggers.

Although these dhamma speakers have good intentions for sharing their knowledge, the Buddha has said in the Sallekha sutta (see MN 8, Venerable Bodhi’s translation): that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; … that one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; So here I offer a translation of the Dhammakathika sutta (AN 4.136) about the Buddha's description of the four kinds of Dhamma speakers, in hopes that it will help you to understand why you need the Mahāpadesa sutta as your standard and guide to  distinguish what is relevant to the goal of the holy life from what is irrelevant until you gain the knowledge and vision of what is path and non-path (maggāmagga) yourself to be able to make the distinction.


O Bhikkhus, there are these four [kinds of] Dhamma speakers. Which four?     

Here, O bhikkhus, a certain Dhamma speaker speaks little and [his speech] is irrelevant, and his assembly does not have the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks little and [his speech] is relevant, and his assembly has the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks much and [his speech] is irrelevant, and his assembly does not have the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

Here, O bhikkhus, another Dhamma speaker speaks much and [his speech] is relevant, and his assembly has the skills for [distinquishing] the relevant and the irrelevant. It is just such a Dhamma speaker, O Bhikkhus, that is recognized as a Dhamma speaker by such an assembly.

These, O Bhikkhus, are the four [kinds of] Dhamma speakers.

Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 08:48:59 AM
Sorry, I couldn't understand whatever is going on here. Also, dear Uncle Ebo, can you please give me online link to those core teaching, you mentioned in one of your reply?

Dear Avuso Vivek,
Regarding online links to translations of Buddha's core teachings, please be aware that available translations from the pali have several drawbacks due to lack of representative words in the language it is being translated to, or lack of understanding of the dhamma by the translator (academic approach to the dhamma), or sacrifice fidelity to “proper” English, etc. Much can be lost in translation so it is good to be familiar enough with the pali language to double check available translations.

If I get the time, I will attempt a more direct rendition of the suttas I have recommended on this post. In the meantime, the best available translations, although with a tinge of traditional commentarial bias, is by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. Most of Venerable Bodhi’s work is copyrighted by Wisdom Publications, with both hardcopy and pdf versions available for sale from Wisdom Publications. They must be used under the Copyright Fair Use guidelines if extracts are used in dhamma discussions. Wisdom Publications has generously made some of Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi‘s sutta translations available to the general public, including monastics, for free use under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. 

Another good translation work is by the Pali Text Society (PTS). PTS has also generously made translations of several books of the suttapitaka available in the Public Domain under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 (CC BY-NC 3.0) licence, or the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.

Both suttacentral.net and obo.genaud.net host  Bhikkhu Bodhi’s and PTS translations that are available in the Public Domain. Note that both sites also offer alternative translations and have generously made their source codes and translations/sources available on github for developers, should the software engineer in you rekindle interest in taking on a translation project  ;-). The Public Domain license that governs PTS translations allows for adapting the translations to make improvements and corrections and so can save a lot of time as a pre-translation if you ever take on a translation project in the future.

Venerable Thanissaro also hosts his own translations with rather “new age” and fashionable choice of words on accesstoinsight.org/

I believe Bhante Johann is also working on hosting some translations from what he considers to be “trusted sources“, like Venerable Thanissaro, Avuso Varado, Sister Upalavana and others but I am not very familiar with Bhante’s work.

Here is a link to a nice summary of the Public Domain licenses to guide your free usage of sutta translations that are made available under these licenses.

obo.genaud.net/frontmatter/004_copyright.htm

/me : relation, links to outsiders removed
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 10:38:12 AM
Certain Nyom Ebo isn't yet familar with the tradition of the Noble Ones and prefers to follow householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.

Given, toward the Sangha, Gems, consciously, neither traded, nor Robin hood stolen, nor subject of marked, not in relation with bad people/monks, not in village or public domain, not involved in corruption, improper livelihood and given consume (licencio) for headless people with no shame and respect, like farmer raise pigs. Slaves and outcast and their poor greedy masters/heros. Ghandi and Malcom-Dhamma of destructing Sublime for letting dirt and dark appear bright.

Certain there isn't any relation present here so go on and follow Devadattas host and Maras army. Thats not a village here.

If one follows those encouraging to bad things, to disobedience, to ideas of wrong views and rights... such is called following and association with Papamittas (bad friend, enemies in disguise of friend) and the sure path to ruin in all regards.

Deal, approve, engaging, leading others to steal even from the Gems, such is indeed the most destructive path, partaking on the greatest thievery in the world and use the Gems for gains and stand.

Be aware that communist, marxists, pseudo liberal, are still in the sphere of the six grave downfall deeds.

It's very unlikely, being related in such far out culture, to ever gain the going forth under the Tripple gems but likely to pattern further deep downward, deprived from all Sublime states, path and fruits, devoted to Mara.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

unda the smith:]
"I ask the sage of abundant discernment,
awakened, lord of the Dhamma, free
of craving,
         supreme
among two-legged beings,
      best
of charioteers:
   "How many contemplatives
   are there in the world?
      Please tell me."

[The Buddha:]
"Four contemplatives, Cunda. There isn't a fifth.
Being asked face-to-face, I'll explain:
   the Victor of the path,
   the teacher of the path,
   one who lives by the path,
   & one who corrupts the path."

[Cunda:]
"Whom do the Awakened
call the Victor of the path
[&] one who is an unequalled teacher of the path?
Tell me the one who lives by the path,
and explain to me one who corrupts the path."

[The Buddha:]
"He's crossed over perplexity,
his arrow removed,
delighting in Unbinding, free
of greed,
the leader of the world with its devas:
      one like this
      the Awakened
      call the Victor
      of the path.

He here knows the foremost as foremost,
who right here shows & analyzes the Dhamma,
that sage, a cutter-of-doubt unperturbed:
      he's called the second of monks,
      the teacher of the path.

   Mindful, restrained,
he lives by the well-taught    Dhamma-principles,
            path,
associating with principles without blame:
      he's called the third of monks,
      one who lives by the path.

Creating a counterfeit
of those with good practices,
self-asserting, a corrupter of families,[1] intrusive,
deceitful, unrestrained, chaff,
going around in disguise:
      he's one who corrupts the path.

Any householder, having ferreted these out
   — a discerning disciple of those who are noble —
knowing they aren't all the same,
seeing this, his conviction's not harmed.
For how could the corrupt with the un-
   corrupt,
      the impure with the pure,
         be put on a par?"
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.05.than_en.html

Dhamma not in line with Dhamma is as much A-dhamma as A-Dhamma it self, while trade in spheres where on one side purified, could lead to abound the string bond to Mara. Something the fourth Samana is out of range.

karuṇā & upekkhā
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 12:03:25 PM
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thank you very much for letting me know that direct links to external sites are not allowed on this forum. I will keep that in mind  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

Certain Nyom Ebo isn't yet familar with the tradition of the Noble Ones and prefers to follow householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.

Different traditions have different views and opinions about what the tradition of the Noble Ones entail. May Bhante be more specific about what Bhante has in mind for the tradition of the Noble Ones?
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 12:44:36 PM
Perceiving not being given and take, on ideas of rights, isn't the tradition of the Noble ones.
Encouraging to do so, as well to keep outwardly shines to stay in trade on both sides. Speaking one thing, thinking different and act different as spoken and thought, this to, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To take from the Village or forests what has not been given, can not be taken on trust, also this isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To hide things up when in spheres of good but even if conducting bad, isn't tradition of the Noble Ones.
To nourish and take part on the Worlds fruits of trade, on what isn't given not backbound into the world, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To lift oneself above ones parents, above those one depends on and relays on, feeds on them, above those in front, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.
To bind links toward known rebels and "enemies" of the tradition, to put "harmony" and productivity above Dhamma in line of Dhamma, isn't tradition of the Noble Ones.
To approve common ways, the ways of the villagers as equal or even Sublime the tradition, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Culture marxism, culture thief, and after creating a copy, cut appart from the Noble Ones tradition, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Giving based not on Virtue, isn't the way of the Noble Ones.
Conducting akusala for what ever sake, for whom ever, not to speak for even lower, or equal, isn't the tradition of the Noble Ones.

A set of virtues of those having virtues, pleasing to the Noble Ones, incl. livelihood and ways to attain paccaya of gross and fine maintaining possibilities to find highest release is given here in DN 2: Samaññaphala Sutta — The Fruits of the Contemplative Life (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than_en.html).

Even if not involved, if associating with bad friends, one is easy suspected (see "defilements to be abound by avoiding) and therefore, if still depending, good to prove a "gifts" bounds, in relation of intentions, objectives and purpose (for world, common, or above and beyond?): AN 4.83: Avannaraha Sutta - Dispraise (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8390.msg3557.html#msg3557)
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 01:03:49 PM
It touches also an important duty for a student once in relation with preceptor or teacher, to keep the relation maintained and not limited by doubts and good to know if seeking avter preceptor/teacher, Nissaya (Fundation in the tradition):

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

(Mv.I.25.24) “Without having taken the preceptor’s [similar  with teacher] leave, (the student) should not give an alms bowl to anyone, nor should he receive an alms bowl from that person.[36]

“He shouldn’t give robe-cloth to that person or receive robe-cloth from that person.

“He shouldn’t give a requisite to that person or receive a requisite from that person.

“He shouldn’t cut that person’s hair or have (his own) hair cut by that person.

“He shouldn’t perform a service for that person or have that person perform a service (for him).

“He shouldn’t act as that person’s steward or have that person act as (his own) steward.

“He shouldn’t be that person’s attendant or take that person as his own attendant.

“He shouldn’t bring back almsfood for that person or have that person bring back almsfood (for him).

“Without having taken the preceptor’s leave, he shouldn’t enter a village, shouldn’t go to a cemetery, shouldn’t leave for a faraway place.[37]
“If the preceptor is sick, (the student) should tend to him as long as life lasts; he should stay (with him) until he recovers.”[38]
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv01/mv.01.15.khem_en.html

Some possible effects to consider if ready and willing to bear them:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others

...

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the seventh.

78. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the eighth.

79. "Bhikkhus, the increase of wealth is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the ninth.

80. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the tenth."
Quote from: http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.071-080.uppa_en.html

Wisdom here should be understand as the product of right view, virtue, giving/letting go and not accumulation of knowledge unrelated to the sequence, after a stand in the world.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 01:51:36 PM
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for sharing his views about what entails the tradition of the Noble Ones. I was hoping Bhante could also elaborate a bit this statement:
Quote from: ??
householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.
Are householders no longer part of the triple Gems in Bhante's tradition?

Bhante knows my preference for definition of Nobility by the Buddha so may Bhante allow me to share Venerable Nanamoli's translation of Aranavibhanga Sutta as an alternative definition of the tradition of the Noble Ones.
I have removed direct links to conform to the rules of this forum so I hope it is not too much trouble for Bhante.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

THUS HAVE I HEARD. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Sāvatthī in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus:

"Bhikkhus." - "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this:

2. "Bhikkhus, I shall teach you an exposition of non-conflict.

Listen and attend closely to what I shall say." - "Yes, venerable sir," the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

3. "One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial. The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.[1257] One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma. One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that; one should pursue pleasure within oneself. One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech~ One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly. One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage. This is the summary of the exposition of non-conflict.

4. "'One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"The pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires[1258] - low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way.[1259] [231] Disengagement from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires - low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way.

"The pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Disengagement from the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not pursue sensual pleasure, which is low, vulgar, coarse, ignoble, and unbeneficial; and one should not pursue self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial.'

5. "'The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulne1?s, and right concentration. So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'The Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes ... to Nibbāna.'

6. "'One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

7. "How, bhikkhus, does there come to be extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma? When one says: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires - low ... and unbeneficial - are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires -low ... and unbeneficial - are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some.

"When one says: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of selfmortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - [232] are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some.

"When one says: 'All those who have not abandoned the fetter of being[1260] are beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the wrong way,' one thus disparages some. When one says: 'All those who have abandoned the fetter of being are without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and they have entered upon the right way,' one thus extols some. This is how there comes to be extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma.

8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Ohamma? When one does not say: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires ... have entered upon the wrong way,' but says instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, -and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.[1261] When one does not say: I All those disengaged from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'The disengagement is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"When one does not say: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of self-mortification ... have entered upon the wrong way,' but says instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma. When one does not say: 'All those disengaged from the pursuit of self-mortification ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'The disengagement is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"When one does not say: 'All those who have not abandoned the fetter of being ... have entered upon the wrong way,' [233] but says instead: 'As long as the fetter of being is unabandoned, being too is unabandoned,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

When one does not say: 'All those who have abandoned the fetter of being ... have entered upon the right way,' but says instead: 'When the fetter of being is abandoned, being also is abandoned,' then one teaches only the Dhamma.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma.'

9. "'One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure.

What five?

Forms cognizable by the eye sounds cognizable by the ear. .. odours cognizable by the nose fIavours cognizable by the tongue ... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, and that it should be feared.

"Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna ... the second jhāna ... the third jhāna ... the fourth jhāna. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared.

[234] "So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.'

10. "'One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Here, bhikkhus, when one knows covert speech to be untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial, one should on no account utter it. When one knows covert speech to be true, correct, and unbeneficial, one should try not to utter it. But when one knows covert speech to be true, correct, and beneficial, one may utter it, knowing the time to do so.

"Here, bhikkhus, when one knows overt sharp speech to be untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial, one should on no account utter it. When one knows overt sharp speech to be true, correct, and unbeneficial, one should try not to utter it. But when one knows overt sharp speech to be true, correct, and beneficial, one may utter it, knowing the time to do so.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not utter covert speech, and one should not utter overt sharp speech.'

11. "'One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks hurriedly, one's body grows tired and one's mind becomes excited, one's voice is strained and one's throat becomes hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks hurriedly is indistinct and hard to understand.

"Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks unhurriedly, one's body does not grow tired nor does one's mind become excited, one's voice is not strained nor does one's throat become hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is distinct and easy to understand.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should speak unhurriedly, not hurriedly.'

12. "'One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said?

"How, bhikkhus, does there come to be insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage? Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a 'dish' [pāti], [235] a 'bowl' [patta], a 'vessel' [vittha], a 'saucer' [serāva], a 'pan' [dhāropa], a 'pot' [pot}.a], a 'mug' [hana] or a 'basin' [pislla]. So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, one speaks accordingly, firmly adhering [to that expression] and insisting: 'Only this is correct; anything else is wrong.' This is how there comes to be insistence on local language and overriding normal usage.[1262]

"And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be non-insistence on local language and non-overriding of normal usage? Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a 'dish' ... or a 'basin.' So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, without adhering [to that expression] one speaks accordingly, thinking: 'These venerable ones, it seems, are speaking with reference to this.' This is how there comes to be noninsistence on local language and non-overriding of normal usage.

"So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'One should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage.'

13. "Here, bhikkhus, the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires -low ... and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, disengagement from the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires low ... and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the pursuit of self-mortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, disengagement from the pursuit of selfmortification - painful, ignoble, and unbeneficial - is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. [236] Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the Middle Way discovered by the Tathāgata avoids both these extremes; giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. It is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, extolling and disparaging and failure to teach only the Dhamma is a state beset by suffering ... and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, not extolling and not disparaging and teaching only the Dhamma is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, sensual pleasure - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure - is a state beset by suffering ... and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment, is a state without suffering ... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is true, correct, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, covert speech that is true, correct, and beneficial is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech that is untrue, incorrect, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech that is true, correct, and unbeneficial is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, overt sharp speech [237] that is true, correct, and beneficial is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the speech of one who speaks hurriedly is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way. Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is a state without suffering ... Therefore this is a state without conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage is a state beset by suffering ... Therefore this is a state with conflict.

"Here, bhikkhus, non-insistence on local language and nonoverriding of normal usage is a state without suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict.

14. "Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We shall know the state with conflict and we shall know the state without conflict, and knowing these, we shall enter upon the way without conflict.' Now, bhikkhus, Subhuti is a clansman who has entered upon the way without conflict."[1263]

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.


[1257] This is substantially identical with the proclamation with which the newly enlightened Buddha opened his first discourse to the five bhikkhus, before teaching them the Four Noble Truths.

[1258] This is a more complicated expression for the pursuit of sensual pleasure.

[1259] MA: It is "beset by suffering, vexation," etc., through the suffering and vexation, etc., of its results and the suffering and vexation, etc., of its attendant defilements.

[1260] This is craving for being.

[1261] That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) - the mode of practice - without explicit references to persons.

[1262] This problem of "insistence on local language" must have been particularly acute in the Saŋgha, when the bhikkhus lived a life of constant wandering and had to pass through many localities each with their distinct dialects.

[1263] Ven. Subhuti was the younger brother of Anāthapiṇḍika and became a bhikkhu on the day Jeta's Grove was offered to the Saŋgha. The Buddha appointed him the foremost disciple in two categories - those who live without conflict and those who are worthy of gifts.

Quote from: obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/mn/mn.139.ntbb.wp.htm
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 02:17:16 PM
Dear Bhante Johann,
Thanks to Bhante for sharing his views about what entails the tradition of the Noble Ones. I was hoping Bhante could also elaborate a bit this statement:
Quote from: ??
householders way decorating it with the Gems to gain some shine like shine.
Are householders no longer part of the triple Gems in Bhante's tradition?
As Nyom probable pointed out in the Sutta shared, answering already the question (for what even reason ask, considering that). Householder here means, no virtue, as not penetrated the Senses and does not refer to outwardly clothes, includes a huge amount of people in robes as well, trading with Dhamma, making a lifelihood on it and from corrupting families (those running around in disguise... hiding and act for most accumulations)

Quote from: Nyom Ebo
Bhante knows my preference for definition of Nobility by the Buddha so may Bhante allow me to share Venerable Nanamoli's translation of Aranavibhanga Sutta as an alternative definition of the tradition of the Noble Ones.
I have removed direct links to conform to the rules of this forum so I hope it is not too much trouble for Bhante.

It touches my person and possible others only that far when wrong conducts and bad relations are approved.
It's not in my persons sphere to finally know whether Nyom takes and gives what not given (has reason to take on trust or not, acts on wrong or right view) but signs say he might still used to commons and villagers ways.

Things "trouble" Atma only as far as to assist toward what is kusala and prefent others from wrong view and wrong actions on it.

As far as aware the person of the source, a former related of the punk and rebel sect around Sujato and to adaptation of making the Tipitaka a legal trade subject via Oxford's objections, does not give toward the Sangha, has no relation to the Gems and intents in spheres of householders and rebels.

(The Dhamma shared former on ati.org, was given consciously and personal by Upasaka John B., and received for the Sangha and it's follower then, before he abounded it later to the related of the householder-sects and Robin hoods. It can be used and taken, shared on trust,  found on zugangzureinsicht.org or accesstoinsight.eu, if wishing to relay on given.)

If wishing to know whether given for purpose outward the common, householder, ways and intended without string back to world, good if Nyom personally ask whether he can take and share it for the Sangha and faithfull follower and thereby not only keep his Silas clean but also based on them, would make relation, great merits to dedicate rightly attained here when perceiving the Sublimity within, reflecting on the Savaka Sangha.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 02:48:52 PM
To add: the source of the sutta, owner Buddhist Publication Society: the current trading monk, ( Nyanatusita Bhikkhu ) isn't pleased to see Dhamma-Dana and share for the Sangha, as personally approached and asked and it's strongly to doubt whether obo.genaud actually had asked, went beyound common, and pleasing to the Noble Ones. Their shares for commons are simply a market and honor pressured gifts, likewise the speech of Noble Ones and that of smart trader are often very similar, abstaining from both, praise and blame, but the first out of avoiding accumulations and the secound for gain.

It's the villagers way to "steal" stolen, cheat each other, to battle for trade and gain and sell pseudo-liberality to bind for own lifelihood.

And taking of what isn't given, even if stolen, even if "back", is still taking what isn't given and not Noble, as well. Relays on wrong view, rights, and demanding.

If wishing for simply much wealth (incl. knowledge), many relations, fame, that is also a voluntary way, but the other direction of gain and maintain wisdom and release, not the Noble way. So those are two different paths, that of the "householder" and "homeless". When they get mixed up, they then to unify at the lower and lose of the higher alternative.

A person can cite and remember even all Dhamma by as a spoon does not recognize the taste of the soup, wouldn't see his own defilements, and therefore commentars and pointing out, by stories seeming not relevant, the guidance of others, is very importand to make the taste accessible.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
Dear Bhante,
Thanks to Bhante for not being too troubled about my use of Wisdom Publications generous public donation of their sutta translations.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

To add: the source of the sutta, owner Buddhist Publication Society: the current trading monk, ( Nyanatusita Bhikkhu ) isn't pleased to see Dhamma-Dana and share for the Sangha, as personally approached and asked and it's strongly to doubt whether obo.genaud actually had asked, went beyound common, and pleasing to the Noble Ones. Their shares for commons are simply a market and honor pressured gifts, likewise the speech of Noble Ones and that of smart trader are often very similar, abstaining from both, praise and blame, but the first out of avoiding accumulations and the secound for gain.

May Bhante not blame BPS translators. Wisdom Publications own the copyrights and authorization for what translations get donated. I can give Bhante information about the Wisdom Publication Copyright contact person if Bhante would like to ask the real owners about donating more of their translations than what is currently available in the Public Domain for use by monastics.

And taking of what isn't given, even if stolen, even if "back", is still taking what isn't given and not Noble, as well. Relays on wrong view, rights, and demanding.

But Bhante, the bhikkhu sangha are the owners, custodians and preservers of the dhammavinaya in any language. So I wonder why Bhante thinks translations that have been donated to the general public and recognised as such by the world, cannot be used by monastics. I cannot think of a more deserving group to make use of such public donations than monastics if used properly without violating the terms of the corresponding Public Domain license. Isn't Bhante's views and opinions on proper use of Public Domain translations by monastics overshooting what is considered to be proper usage in the world?
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
It's voluntary to change relation, Nyom.

Common related and Public Domain related, isn't the Noble Domain. And no interest in getting involved in culture thieving, the heritage, of the Sangha. Not to speak that putting things under this common domains requires approve to be used also for bad things, aside of approve of akusala. No comment on directly trade and livelihood on it.

It's also not proper to approach householers and ask (not to speak of use not really given). Also this ways have been pointed out in practical ways, that assumings are total different as real approaches.

So my Nyom leave the householders ways in their range and good to not participate and approve the pulling of heritage of the Noble Ones into this range, not encourage, not to speak from doing, if after long term wellfare, let it be their merits and demerits, as they wish, of what counts for Nyom as well.

There is a case where social almsgiving [food in the derived case] (of which isn't public domain actually either) for the poor can be used by monks, but only in special cases and no more then two times.

It's not without reason that my person says, Nyom is certain not related but to a good amount in relation with corrupters of families and marxists, pseudo-liberal, not fearing to take of what is not given, common householders, villagers, making a living on sozial work and favor, approve of lower...

May Nyom join the rebel group at suttacentral or commerial shareplaces, their they aren't that conservative, and do not fear misconduct, villagers ways are high regarded there and encouraged to follow in taking and giving what isn't given. There they follow the aim to cut all down to the lowest equal for harmonious consume and trades in the world.

And just to inform forther: telling a monk: "go and ask" or thinking "if he desires, needs, he can do as well as we common do" isn't really of much merits in all circumstances. Does Nyom think that those near or in the Noble Domain desire of what "householders" hold on, and go after it?

May Nyom go out, and let go of taking on trust on assuming that given without knowing, and try to ask for the Sanghas use without bonds to Common and Public domains, to find out for himself. Seeing the requirement, and if only purified on one side, would be of great merits, if rightly obtained is given into sublime field. It might be that in case of public, he wouldn't easy find the owner to ask, as already death. And in the other cases he might see that even a copy of what commonhouseholders hold, will be hardly obtained without backpulling strings.

Rare, very rare, is generosity with purification involved, beyond common trade, the more rare is purifying exchange of goodness of Dhamma. And soon no more present in this world, as it currently look like.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 05:29:59 PM
There is a case where social almsgiving [food in the derived case] (of which isn't public domain actually either) for the poor can be used by monks, but only in special cases and no more then two times.
Perhaps Bhante may have forgotten about other cases in the suttas and vinaya of given in the public domain, where monks and householders alike freely made use. One example in the vinayapitaka is the woodland grove where the Buddha met the group of thirty friends of high standing who were amusing themselves in the grove with their wives, while the Buddha was meditating in that same woodland grove. Surely there must have been similar public donations of groves by kings or generous land owners that monastics and householders alike made use of. Another case is the public donation of resthouses for travelers, both monastics and householders (see the background story involving Venerable Anuruddha on the rule about sleeping in the same place with a woman).

And just to inform forther: telling a monk: "go and ask" or thinking "if he desires, needs, he can do as well as we common do" isn't really of much merits in all circumstances. Does Nyom think that those near or in the Noble Domain desire of what "householders" hold on, and go after it?

May Bhante forgive me if my offer to provide Bhante contact information was offensive. Bhante mentioned that Bhante already asked BPS. I was just pointing out to Bhante that BPS are the wrong owners to ask, and only wished to point Bhante to the right owners if Bhante was still interested in asking.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 05:49:30 PM
Things are often not well considered, and very cherry picked, looking after the "go's" before the "don'ts", but with the objection to gain desired, defend a stand and not to act in ways of Noble.

Also the very practical and live seeing and understanding of homeless life can not easy be known if dwelling in and using householder domain.

May Nyom do and undertake of what seems good and right in his relations, best in line with Dhamma, and no need to feel burdened by other relations circumstances. They might not relay on common assumed rights, but on given.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 06:01:29 PM
And just to inform forther: telling a monk: "go and ask" or thinking "if he desires, needs, he can do as well as we common do" isn't really of much merits in all circumstances. Does Nyom think that those near or in the Noble Domain desire of what "householders" hold on, and go after it?

May Bhante forgive me if my offer to provide Bhante contact information was offensive. Bhante mentioned that Bhante already asked BPS. I was just pointing out to Bhante that BPS are the wrong owners to ask, and only wished to point Bhante to the right owners if Bhante was still interested in asking.

Nothing to ask for pardon if with good intention. And no demands on possible given. But, as Nyom thinks to know possible ways well: How could a monk, without fault, without reason for remorse, approach an householder, even a trader, and ask for his goods? And how does it looks for the world when Monks ask for Dhamma in householder Domain? Good to forget common ways if wishing to understand the Noble Domain. Yet good as well for Nyom to get sure that being given, still able, still in different spheres, for making progress toward a more refine, if wishing so.

It's not custom in this tradition, not even in good areas, to approach neighbors in the afternoon and consume uninvited.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 23, 2019, 06:18:30 PM
Thanks for forgiving Bhante.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

And thanks for adding Cunda the smith sutta (Snp 1.5) on this thread. It is such a delectable discourse, a real ambrosia, nourishing and refreshing!
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 23, 2019, 06:35:31 PM
Thanks for forgiving Bhante.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

And thanks for adding Cunda the smith sutta (Snp 1.5) on this thread. It is such a delectable discourse, a real ambrosia, nourishing and refreshing!

Even this Dhamma, if having wrong perceptions and not further explained, if received in wrong circumstances, can be of more harm then help for a not so wise and just feeding his defilement, Nyom. Can be additional food for rebel.

It's in as far "badly" translated, as "Any householder" speaks actually of Noble Ones, such relativations, soft and even more, are usual in Dhamma-giving for doing a favor, for trade.

So maybe good if answering the topic "Relay on what and whom?" in short, after the many food for thoughts:

One, seeking for long term happiness, should relay on unrelated to world bonds, real giver, and on what is given by this goodness, to gain the liberal Domain for oneself. Relaying on given for release and abstain from different.

Sīlena sugatiṃ yanti.

Through virtue they go to a good bourn.

Sīlena bhoga-sampadā.

Through virtue is wealth attained.

Sīlena nibbutiṃ yanti.

Through virtue they go to Liberation.

Tasmā sīlaṃ visodhaye.

Therefore we should purify our virtue.


Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: saddhamma on November 24, 2019, 03:59:50 AM
Sīlena sugatiṃ yanti.

Through virtue they go to a good bourn.

Sīlena bhoga-sampadā.

Through virtue is wealth attained.

Sīlena nibbutiṃ yanti.

Through virtue they go to Liberation.

Tasmā sīlaṃ visodhaye.

Therefore we should purify our virtue.


Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu Bhante for bringing in the topic of virtue, so relevant to this discussion on public donations usage. This dhamma quote that Bhante has provided is another ambrosia of the saddhamma on the benefits of noble virtue, so nourishing and refreshing.

I am sure Bhante already know that for one to possess the aggregate of noble virtue which lead to noble right liberation, noble right view must come first. Virtue defiled by the three lower fetters is susceptible to fueling extreme views based on virtue. A good example is the view that Bhante has formed about the tradition of the Noble Ones being against making proper use of public donations, although the Buddha has not laid down such a rule. Such a view is beset with suffering, leading to stabbing others who are not of the same view with verbal daggers. Even with examples in the vinayapitaka showing precedence for monastic usage of public donations, Bhante still insists on a view that overshoots what is considered to be proper usage in the world.

Perhaps the Gaṇikā sutta from Udana 6.8 can help Bhante to see the danger in the extremes that relying on virtue without noble right view can lead to.

Here I offer a translation of the udana 6.8 verses only.  _/\_ _/\_ _/\_

yañca pattaṃ yañca pattabbaṃ
That which is attained and that which should be attained,

ubayametaṃ rajānukiṇṇaṃ āturassānusikkhato.
both these are strewn with stain by the miserable one in [wrong] training.       

ye ca sikkhāsārā,
Those for whom the training rules is the essence,

sīlabbatajīvitabrahmacariyaupaṭṭhānasārā,
[taking] virtue and observances, life of celibacy, and service as the essence,   

ayameko anto.
this is one extreme.

ye ca evaṃvādino: 'natthi kāmesu doso'ti
And those who say this: 'there is no fault in sensual pleasures',

ayaṃ dutiyo anto.
this is the second extreme.

iccete ubho antā kaṭasivaḍḍhanā.
Thus both these extremes swell the cemeteries.

kaṭasiyo diṭṭhiṃ vaḍḍhenti.
And the cemeteries keep wrong view in motion.

ete te ubho ante anabiññāya
For those who have no direct knowledge of both these extremes,

oliyanti eke atidhāvanti eko.
some lag behind and some go too far.
                                                               
ye ca kho te abhiññāya
But they for whom there is direct knowledge,
                                                               
tatra ca nāhesuṃ tena ca na maññiṃsu.
there does not come to be that-by-which there, and no conceiving therein.       
                                                               
vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāyā ti.
For those there is no round for designation.

Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 24, 2019, 06:34:55 AM
It's not possible to receive things of which are strong reasons that the giver hasn't obtained the gift in proper ways, given by the real owner, but origins popossible out of the sphere of concealment of stolen goods. Perceiving so, receiving would be a transgression. And also the aspect of told relation between disciple and teacher, in regard of use from outside the relation is something to consider, if wishing to maintain a relation build on trust and loyalty.

Relation is voluntary, yet love without marriage doesn't work for a good.

Good householder from Ghana, Nyom Ebo, calling himself saddhamma without having been given possible by what ever parents, says correct that my person often uses strong language of which can possible hurt if of less trust and faith, strong annoying for fools, caught in much conceit, and often hard to digest. Yet he also does not encourage to follow, since if in dependency could limit ones relations, wealth an honor.

May Nyom be sure, that modern views and communism arent in the frame of right and grasping the snake on the tail will hurt.

And even my person often engages in burdensome talks on generosity with people without, virtue with people without... it also has it's limits when no slight qualities are seen, basic right view is missed. May Nyom follow the modern ideas and productivity and consume over the path and Noble Domain.

And just to get known, should a Monk rest and dwell in anothers domain without given, without having asked the owner, he conducts a fault. Also when he would leave it, without saying anything. It's not possible to pull the Noble Domain, real liberal, into Villages and their binding conducts for consume and ideas of purify by means of food.

The are significat differents between "beggar" and "social benefit fraud/benefit scrounger", even between virtues trader (householder) and "benefit scrounger", who, even if not in need, prefer to take not really given then to lighten their bonds and debt. Neither of glory nor of shine, the Uposatha of the cow-boys and faceless (Jains). The secound is called thief.

Certain domain, when get oc-copy-ed with strong wrong degenerating tendencies, doesn't change, it simply disappears, is no more present in this world build from conceit, and batched by bones.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Vivek on November 24, 2019, 08:49:38 AM
Metta to Everyone.
thanks for discussion.
Now I am taking leave from sangham.net.

Be Happy, Take care,
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 24, 2019, 09:30:52 AM
May Wanderer Vivek have a successful journey and arrives there what seeking for. May he also keep in mind that taking refuge is always possible as long this domain remains in it's original purpose.
Title: Re: Relay on what and whom?
Post by: Johann on November 24, 2019, 10:13:04 AM
It's by the means of perceiving the Gems as Sublime by good householders, that they are capable to use reflecting on them for cleansing the mind and reach borderlands, but there are also those who use them to cover their dirt up and to gain some beauty for better dealling with their weak stands while staying in outer lands. Using them as makeup for low trades and to try to make their confused views shine.

There is no security if abounding right view and virtue, thinking already dwell amoung highered path. Even Arahat do not abound what is the safe bet for those not knowing not seeing yet.

Adding since possible useful for clear understanding on the matter "not given"

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

...[224] Bhikkhus, endowed with forty things as though led and lain is in hell. What forty?

Here, bhikkhus, a certain one destroys living things, rouses others to destroy living things gives permission to destroy living things and praises the destruction of living things. Takes the not given rouses others to take the not given, gives permission to take the not given and praises taking the not given....
Quote from: draft http://accesstoinsight.eu/user/johann/work/uppa/sut/an/10/sut.an.10.v22.uppa later avaliable at http://accesstoinsight.eu/en/tipitaka/sut/an/10/sut.an.10.v22.uppa