Oxford University is on the way to make the Dhamma to a legal article of trade!
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[Buddha]

Author Topic: Oxford University is on the way to make the Dhamma to a legal article of trade!  (Read 6595 times)

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Offline Johann

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WiPitaka project makes the Tipitaka legal to a consume product and sell able

The undertaking of the "wipitaka" project from the "Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies", (A Recognised Independent Centre of Oxford University) needs urged be made represented and protest. Please forward this information and help to preserve the Tipitaka!

Here the ongoing discussion about the intention of the project:


Quote from: wipitaka.org
WiPitaka talk:About
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Dear WiPitaka Team,

I tried to find something very essential on the "About" or "porject page". As the matter is all about Dhamma, I guess it's very important to point out a general dedication for the project and the co-work which is actually more important as the product it self for all participator. Maybe that issue is worthy to think about.

_()_ metta & mudita --Johann (talk) 07:09, 5 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Johann,

thank you for your understandable remark. However, I would like to point out that this is not a religious website. The WiPitaka project uses the source texts of groups of Buddhists (commonly taken together and named 'Theravāda') but that does not imply a religious intention on the side of the project itself. In fact, the project aims at deepening its participants' (and visitors') understanding and knowledge of Pāli (texts). Whether and how any religious person/Theravādin is practicing anything in accordance (or discordance) with these texts is not a concern of the WiPitaka. Nor is the religious background of its users'. Everyone is invitied to participate in this work, whether Christian, Muslim, atheist or else. If someone is studying the Pāli texts due to his/her appreciation of the language or the messages/doctrines contained in them - they shall feel free to bring themselves in or just read other peoples' translations, discussions, etc.

--Admin (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Admin,

intention has nothing to do with religion. Where should the work lead to? Where does the foundation of this work come from. That is very important. I also did not meant to point out people or groups of people. It's simply about the purpose. There is a good quote on the about page "What has not been done needs to be done, and what has been done needs to be done again" which is right, but wrong, when there is actually no aim. Shouldn't it be not done, that it does not need to be done again? Or should it be done, that it is done again and again? Or should it be done to be able to let go of doing it again and again? It's also a matter of gratitude. We don't live in a time where gratitude is known very well.

--Johann (talk) 03:42, 8 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Johann,

we are pleased to see that you're thinking a lot about the project and its possibilities as well as limitations.

The Wipitaka is an initiative from an academic organisation. As such, it follows the values prevalent in academic society. It also embraces the possibilities that have arisen around wiki technology. It is a tool for interested parties to put forward their own translations of the Pāli canon, and benefit from other viewpoints. The primary purpose of the Wipitaka is to create a space to foster an ongoing, collaborative sharing of translations of the canon from the original Pāli. This, it is hoped, will in turn stimulate the academic study of Pāli and Buddhism around the world.

--Admin (talk) 22:31, 8 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Admin,

I thought it might be maybe good to give a practical sample. We find the Pali Canon copyrighted by the "Vipassana Research Institute" here as a content under GNU-License. I would wonder if it would be like that. The same comes up for cases one would translate from other resources which are not owned by one self (if he/she would take the resources "given"/hold by PTS for example). Technical one would be able to sell this sutta from now own and modify it as well.

Another sample: My text below includes a quote from Thanissaros translation of "Right resolve - Cultivating skillful ways of thought[1]" and if we are very exact and would follow the policy, it would be even in discussions not possible to quote something from anybody anywhere.

So this GNU-licence is really a nice idea for people who think that they are able to give without having taken before or maybe for "Buddhas" who could give simply what they have righteous gained by them self, but for a wholesome giving and taking in the world, its very illusionary and actually dangerous for one self and for others.

So may you and your team consider this cases carefully. It will never be a problem to avoid suddenly effects by adding another slip knot (paragraph and additional sub rule) but that would not change facts (effects of deeds).

Just an idea: Maybe it is possible to change it into a more modest model and search for a "aegis", a giver and sponsor of the resources and make it to a maybe "nonofficial" translation project which could be a good source and feedback for "official" ones at the same time.

Just a thought that arose: Have you talked with Ven. Bhante Sujato? I guess he generally has a similar idea, but is of course limited in worldly aspects. I guess it would be a perfect "share" if a academical institution could take care about the worldly (justified) necessaries while a Bhikkhu could "safeguard" and support the transcendent (justified) necessaries, while both would walk in the same direction, as the academical values at least, also have the welfare of all beings as objective I guess and the place for prosper of real valuable things are always outside the walls of Athen and an co-relation of the regulation and wilderness. It's not the first time that the "Greeks" meet the wisdom of the east. If this is a proper way, it would be good just to invite him and let him act and stay independenly, while support his needs (food, clothes, logging, medicine) and of course all which is needed to be able to access internet and participate as well (if necessary and wished)

--Johann (talk) 05:19, 9 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Admin,

I also thought a little bit about the "license" policy. "The purpose of this License is to make a manual, textbook, or other functional and useful document "free" in the sense of freedom: to assure everyone the effective freedom to copy and redistribute it, with or without modifying it, either commercially or noncommercially. " Actually this modern licensing is nothing else as the try to justify something want is unjust. We need to consider, that the Dhamma was given and even the used pail texts are given (or not, I don't know). How can we accroach to give right, for something we do not own. Not to speak about the try to making it to a commercial object. It is really a wonderful and grateful act to share something with everybody, but it is not possible to share something what is not our own, what was not given righteous. This point goes hand in hand with the devotion. We could have the "Robin Hood" policy but I guess there is a further step to do. So it's very important to let people know what they are doing and that they are aware of there actions. Those "free" "super free" "real free" licensing is nothing else but a wretched try to make illegal legal. "There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions" is a very important part of right view. Dhamma is neither given (if it is given) for the propose to make a business, livelihood or even entertainment out of it and it's also not given to be modified as one likes. The "inventor" was very sensitive in this matter. Of course we can not hinder if somebody does so, but if we know and understand, we should inform of the consequences (and that is high above legal agreements and legal compromise). So to speak:

    If I would contribute, I would have maybe a problem if this is consciously for the propose of commercial use. That does not mean, that I would have a problem if somebody would do even I have not given for such propose. This would be not my business. Everybody is free to do wrong.
    If I would contribute, I would have a problem if this is consciously free to be modified. Not that it would be not good if it would be corrected what is not correct, but it can be also in the other direction and is open to any misuse. Consciously, in this case if I am conscious about it! Form a legal point, one would say: "vested with legal capacity", but as we know, even unknowingly does not protect from fruits.

That is why it is very important and a matter of responsibility.

It would be really great if there would come a pool of righteous giving and receiving into being with Wipitaka, but I guess it will be a little aside of usual legal ways and needs a little bit more effort to be good developed and firm.

"Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" is great, who gave one the permission of working, using and modifying on the delivered texts? Righteous in a sense of Dhamma is neither right nor left and needs therefore a lot of personal responsibility and work to find the path between and we are not able to generalize such and make it to a duty for others. Maybe add: "Do not give if you like to keep a tenure." and "Give and take consciously and responsible"

Honestly, like it is now, I even do not feel very well if I write simply my thought and words and if I would care even about reputation it would be total impossible. Such would be possible in a cold "anonymous" world. Actually we generally have this tendency to make our unrighteous ways legal and we do so in a way that we give everybody the same right. ...as if we could such.

You are free to edit my comments here or replay, how ever you feel that it is useful.

--Johann (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Johann,

I will try to respond to your comments sufficiently: 1) "How can we accroach to give right, for something we do not own. Not to speak about the try to making it to a commercial object." Nobody owns the content of the tipitaka. But, however, people do own manuscripts, books, and other material used to preserve the canon. That's why the WiPitaka does not use the Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana Tipitaka (which is a free resource) instead of the PTS edition.

2) "...but it is not possible to share something what is not our own, what was not given righteous." You can protect the work you've done, whether it results in material or intellectual property. If you submit translations here, you should be aware that it's not protected of being modified etc. But such changes need to be justified and the WiPitaka's administration tries to assure that these terms are met. For example, if you modify someone's translation you should be able to underline, based on the scientific methods used in translational science, your decision with arguments.

3) ".. is nothing else but a wretched try to make illegal legal." There is, as stated above, nothing illegal about using the source texts of the Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana edition here nor is it illegal to contribute your translations, not as long as you have the permission to do so.

4) "Dhamma is neither given ... and it's also not given to be modified as one likes." The Wipitaka is an academic project and its values derive from academic practice.  Thus the “Dhamma" (in the context you are referring to) is a concept which is outside the scope of this project. Again, the WiPitaka project invites the academic practice of translation, plus the sharing and discussion of these translations. Discussing and editing the Pāli texts is a possible and sometimes necessary step prior to this.  Other websites and forums may be more focused on  "Dhamma"..

5) "... I would have maybe a problem if this is consciously for the propose of commercial use." The WiPitaka does not propose its contents to be commercially used. Our license simply states that we won't try to hinder others who wish doing so. Whether their actions are "wrong" or not, is, again, rather a matter for respective websites concerned about discussing "Dhamma".

6) "... but it [=modification] can be also in the other direction and is open to any misuse" See under 2).

7) "... who gave one the permission of working, using and modifying on the delivered texts?" We are using the Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana edition of the canon which can be used for exactly these purposes. Since all changes are documented in detailed ways and the administration tries to keep an eye on all the modifications (and asks for reasons if deemed appropriate) one should not find it difficult to spot the respective differences to the original Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana texts. --Admin (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2013 (CEST)


Dear Admin,

let me comment as it might be useful (if something is wrong what I might not know, please let me and others know, as I do not know with agreements you might have to third parts):

to 1) One who has been given is a righteous owner. If somebody is taking he might be the owner as well but you know that it is even a little bit complicated in worldly juristic matter. In regard of Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana Tipitaka it is owned for sure by the Sangha and it's worldly representative is the monastic Sangha. In the case of the resource you actually use, the maodifications and datas of the Vipassana Research Institute, it is of course copyrighted, look at the webite and I would really wonder if they would share it for being sold and commercial use as the GNU license would allow.

to 2) You did not get the point of "...but it is not possible to share something what is not our own, what was not given righteous." One takes something that is not righteous gained by one self and makes it ones own and then put it under a copyright that makes it unusable for ever. If we look a little deeper it is not far from lordliness.

to 3) I don't see that the foundation the base you try to start here is given. But I could be wrong and it was actually given but if so (to make it to an official trade-able product) it would be more that sad.

to 4) I would really wonder if such is possible in regard of academical ethics.

to 5) WiPitaka does it under this license and it's clear that this license allows, tolerates and even has the propose to make such possible. Being aware of this license and use it means to be aware of it's propose and its effects. It's not possible to make a contract and say "It's just the contract, but actually we meant it different"

to 6) No, that goes even beyond. Maybe it sounds strange and excessive, but remember such as nuclear fission. Would you do such a wiki as well? Actually the subject is even more fussy than fission.

to 7) To stay simply formal: So it was not given by anyone and the use not accepted by anybody? I am not aware of a matter that the Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyana should be dedicated for such proposes as you describe them here.

In addition to ownership. If we look at the Tipitaka it self, it maintains exact explaining of who owns it and that is at least a self a self enlightened Buddha. It also includes how, when, where and whom it is allowed to share. Form a worldly juristic viewpoint the Tipitaka (as a intellectual possession) has no owner, as you stated, but as soon as you put it under the license it actually has. Ownership in a worldly juristic system requires a juristic person and in this case you would make something, which is not owned by anybody to something that is actually owned at least. So you would make something which was free, to something which is no more free. I the case of the data you use, the situation is clear. It is owned by the Vipassana Research Institute and to take it and sell it, would be not right.

So the whole things is ignoring not only the terms which are included in the text by them self but also the terms of really worldly matters. It would be really good if you would find a firm base to work on it and I am sure that there is a wholesome way if the intentions are correct. If it would processed and success in the way it is started here you can be sure that this is the final destruction of the Dhamma - Vinaya and no righteous acting person will ever touch the Tipitaka any more.

You really should think carefully about this matter.

--Johann (talk) 18:19, 11 May 2013 (CEST)
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Conversation in this regard on Sujato's blog :


Quote from: Johann (Hanzze) / May 12 2013 5:33 am

Oxford University is on the way to make the Dhamma to a legal article of trade!

WiPitaka project makes the Tipitaka legal to a consume product and sell able:

The undertaking of the “wipitaka” project from the “Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies”, (A Recognised Independent Centre of Oxford University) needs urged be made represented and protest. Please forward this information and help to preserve the Tipitaka!

wipitaka.org

For the case it might disappear: A copy of the discussion you might find here .


   
Quote from: Alex / May 12 2013 9:30 am]

    Hello Johann, I may have failed to parse the discussion on WiPitaka, but as I understand in summary you are making a supralegal argument that the dhamma must not be sold. I would assert that only a monk is forbidden from selling the dhamma and in fact he must put no further restrictions on the teachings. A gift is a gift. One may encourage and teach proper behaviour and respect, but the Buddha gives no indication that monks should enforce his teachings upon the lay community. In fact such attachment would contradict the central teaching (and I believe entirely incompatible with ultimate release). There is however an argument to be said about adding additional restrictions or removing restrictions from a copyrighted and licensed work, but in this case I believe the law, intent, and morality generally attempt to be compatible. Your friend, Alex

   
       
Quote from: Johann (Hanzze) / May 12 2013 2:06 pm

        I don’t think that you have any idea of neither law, nor Dhamma and I don’t think that you know what is the different for given and taken.
        People today a so used to steal, that they are not a little aware of what they are doing constantly. They have NO gratitude and NO devotion and this fools think that they even can give rights and have inherent right.
        And there is no different between those who wear the robe or not.

        Nobody can hinder you to act foolish and it would be somehow miraculous if people would start to change in our dark world.

        So don’t worry you can eat all a way, I have long time already decided to leave the Dhamma books for the termite for food as they just like to survive and not as like the fools make their time a pleasure and enjoyment for the sake of others lose and pain.

        While I am for sure intended to support, I don’t use to keep a relation with people with wrong view and even no basic understanding, devotion and respect. So don’t know me as your friend at this time and that is friendly meant and as clear supportive hint.

        Ask me further for the case that you like to understand, behind that there is no use to speak further.

        metta

        Johann

       
Quote from: Johann (Hanzze) / May 12 2013 2:37 pm

        No further comment after reading some comments on your page:

        Creators are granted immediate moral rights the moment their works are fixed in physical or digital form. Creators have the right to be attributed as the creator of the work and they have the right to object to offensive representation of their work.

        It’s actually really not necessary to investigate deeper if somebody lakes of basic integrity and is a slave of Brahma with a consciousnesses fare away from earth. The creatures of course.

        Thanks that the Dhamma does not base on “Alexander Edward Genaud – Moral Rights since 1886″ and other imperialistic and bondage lordliness. You are so devoted to the Dhamma – Vinaya and respect it so much that you think you can handle it by your founded created moral concepts of corrupted man.

        I only can hope that some people start to realize which people they nourish and what they integrity and intentions are about. So just for the case you like to know the basics of even get Dhamma taught:

        He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’

        — AN 10.176

        And for the case you like to know what owning the Dhamma means:

        “By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on ‘my self.’ He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one’s knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.”

        — SN 12.15


        and I will live you alone by playing around in your sandboxes and livingroom.

        ‘May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!’

        _()_

Information about the next "anonymous" and secularly "occupy" undertaking and stealing (taking what is not given and even not requested) you might find here: http://www.genaud.net/

Pointless... if such is even not enough to leave the world behind, than it is really with no future alternative objectives. Happy papanca where it is unskillfull and happy apapanca where it would be skillful...

added:
Quote from: Johann (Hanzze) / May 12 2013 3:45 pm

Here the words to a former “devoted” layman, a “creator” who thought that it might be useful to use the Dhamma for wired propose:

One should not make an effort everywhere,
should not be another’s hireling,
should not live dependent on another,
should not go about as a trader in the Dhamma.


Paṭisalla Sutta: Seclusion

I am not sure if Buddha ever meet the Robin Hood bafflement as I guess this has not a little base to get healed.

And to use the words of one of the last respectable people in this gone tradition, after he had seen what his “devoted” fellows found raised made out of what they have learned, Ajahn Bua: “If I would would have enough s**t, I would s**t till it is full.”

It’s really easy to get caught in papanca and it’s sometimes better to investigate only the smell and move on rather then to endless poke around in this dung piles all over this degenerated heritage with there wired “heroes” and “slaves”.
What do you this was the reason why Buddha neither accepted slaves nor give them the possibility to leave the home righteous.

You are even free to make the Dhamma into your gospels and self-congratulatory poetry of non-investigation, moaning, and arrogate… and you can sing “it may life” and “I did it my way” ever and ever again.

_()_
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 06:49:58 AM by Johann »
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Quote from: Thomas Crisman, per email Sat, 11 May 2013 15:38:57 -0500
Hello Johann:

Thank you for the email.  However, in no way will VRI ever consent to the
use of its material in a commercial way or every allow anyone to charge for
its availability.

We have informed the Oxford people that we will not consent now or in the
future to the use of its VRI Pali Tipitaka text, as it appears on the
www.tipitaka.org website in any commercial way, either directly or indirectly. 
It is for the free use of anyone for scholarly and/or devotional purposes.

Please let me know if you become aware of any use to the contrary..

Best Regards,

Thomas Crisman
Attorney for VRI

This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Not unrelated, that one might understand the underlying tendency and intention: Wagner opera to revive language of Buddha (The Pali parts were translated by Professor Richard Gombrich, president of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies)

Not a little doubt any more that something was assumed. May those people live a happy life and may they gain peace and happiness.
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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The last comment and advice on the discussion page of "About" was deleted by the admin (Alex Wrona).

Dear Admin,
   
to be able to process and have a foundation, you should formal request the use of the Pali Texts with devotion and with awareness of your responsibility, aware of the need to accept the terms after on, and you don't need to worry that such a honest and responsible request, if it is with right intention and directed to Nibbana or the path to it, will be rejected and that there is no possibility to do it in a real righteous way. The possibilities are open and you just need to make the right step.

Don't miss to walk the correct way, as this is your foundation for your good work and you are blessed for all holy beings in your undertaking after on.

May you find the courage and bravery to walk a very wholesome path for the welfare of your self and many others and may your work be a good sample for others.

_()_

--[[User:Johann|Johann]] ([[User talk:Johann|talk]]) 05:22, 13 May 2013 (CEST)

I like to add, that Admin (wipitaka.org), Alex (Sujato Blog) and www.genaud.net seems to be related, but that is not sure yet (so take this as assuming and speculation which need to be proved), as in all cases a clear declaration of the identity of the actor is not mentioned. How ever, here also maybe a assuming and something that is not really good and should be maybe corrected:

The Pāli Texts herein were Adapted from the 1995 edition of the digital version of the Sri Lanka Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka Series and carry no copyright.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:01:12 PM by Johann »
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Quote from: User talk:Johann
User talk:Johann[/url]"]
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This user is currently blocked. The latest block log entry is provided below for reference:

    20:41, 13 May 2013 Admin (Talk | contribs) blocked Johann (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, e-mail disabled)

This page has been deleted. The deletion and move log for the page are provided below for reference.

    21:04, 13 May 2013 Admin (Talk | contribs) deleted page User talk:Johann (Author request)

How ever:

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License

Due to some concerns raised, the administration is currently thinking about an adjustment of our license. We'll let all users know as soon as something is decided.

--Admin (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2013 (CEST)

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As all the discussion on witipitaka was deleted by the Admin, I felt the need to inform the Institute as well, as I could not be sure if they are really informed.
Just some minutes ago I got a response, which I think is importand to be recongniced here as well:

Quote from: OCBS, Mr Steven Egan wrote via email, 2013-05-16 14:59

Dear Johann

Thank you for contacting the OCBS and for pointing us to your postings on sangham.net.

We are aware of the discussion that you have been having with regards to the WiPitaka.  In terms of your initial post about intent, I believe the Admin posted a response which I copy in below.

“The Wipitaka is an initiative from an academic organisation.  As  such, it follows the values prevalent in academic society.  It also embraces the values that have arisen around wiki technology.  It is a  tool for interested parties to put forward their own translations of the Pali canon, and benefit from other viewpoints.  The primary purpose of the Wipitaka is to create a space to foster an ongoing, collaborative sharing of translations of the canon from the original  Pali.  This, it is hoped, will in turn stimulate the academic study of Pali and Buddhism around the world."

With regards to your concerns about our license, we have initiated discussions with various organisations who have experience on this matter to further clarify the question of the license and will amend accordingly.

With regards to your posting on sangham.  Please be advised that we are not a part of the University.  We are a Recognised Independent Centre. Although you write this in the body of the posting,  the heading you have chosen is incorrect and we request you to either amend it or remove it.

We appreciate the concerns you have raised and have now set a process of possible revisions and adjustments of our license in motion and are in contact with all parties involved.

Best wishes

Steven Egan
OCBS Operations and Development Manager

...which was answered like following:

Quote from: from Johann via email, 2013-05-16 16:18
Valued Steven Egan,

thank you very much for your response and you acting with responsibility. Thank you also for telling me that "your" institute is not an institute of the Oxford University. Maybe that is a grammar problem of mine as you Institute is mentioned as:

"The Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies
A Recognised Independent Centre of the University of Oxford"
 
 
I will make a note that it is actually meant as "an Independent Center recognized by the University of Oxford". I hope my grammar understanding is enough to get this right understood, thought of "an academic organization".

So if it is actually imprecise mentioned on your website and not just a grammar problem of mine, it would be maybe good to change that as well. If my understanding of English is the cause of this, please apologizes. Neither I was aware before nor even now.

Please let me know if I am wrong, as I really would not like to tell that somebody would be responsible if he/she is not and it this case their should be maybe some more clearance on the website of http://www.ocbs.org/ (Advertising with something that is not ones own is sometimes supportive, but can beat one back as well).

Aside of this, I am more that happy that you have started to lead proper discussions with the responsible people and institutions and you have all my mental support for a good and wholesome prosper of the project. Birth has always it's struggle, but hard struggle at the beginning will cause very health babies and children. I am more than confident that good intention leads to good results.

Regard me as a supporter of you undertaking, even it might be difficult to see such in some cases and from some viewpoints.

All the best for all your good work and never forget about gratitude. It's the base on humanity and well-being for all involved and they are actually really a lot.

metta & mudita

Johann Brucker

Maybe also important to know:


listed Patrons of "The Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies"

HH the Dalai Lama

HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn of Thailand

His Majesty the 5th Druk Gyalpo Jigme Khesar Namgyal Wangchuck of Bhutan

Mr Toshihide Numata, President of the Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai

Daw Aung San Suu Kyi  Hon. DCL(Oxon)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:12:20 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Quote
Betreff:   Re: Legal and official clearance sale of the Tipitaka
Datum:   2013-11-19 15:39
Absender:   Johann Brucker <johann.brucker [ at ]sangham.net>
Empfänger:   thomas [ at ] crisman.com

Dear valued Thomas Crisman,

I am sure that you have a lot of work and worries after the passing away of our high valued Sir Goenka and I wish you and the whole team of the VRI much faith and effort to keep confidence also alive in times where it seems that no support and interest are available by others.
As wished and promised to inform you about the issues of the Oxford Organisation, I sadly have to inform you that it seems that you positive wishes have not come true.

They have (they live from selling teaching, one thing we should know if we talk about scholars) put their translation work, based on the VRI Tipitaka under the Creative Commons CC0 License and honestly I don't have any optimistic thought in regard of their views and volition. We need to be aware that "Monks" are also deep involved and they too have fallen into such ways of livelihood.

The only thing I can suggest you, if you have the possibilities, is to do all possible that (I would say one of the last heritage of the noble Sangha) will not be lost for future generations. As soon as the Buddhas teachings are no more property/heritage of the noble Sangha, taken away from worldly people without faith and respect, their purpose as well as their possibilities in this world are done.

I trust that you make a wise decision and I trust that you will have support by wise people as well. How ever, there should be nothing more important than the own virtue and even such should at least not lead to overstep moral.

If it is like that, then we have to live with it as well, and most important to leave.

I too will try to find people who understand the issue, but as corruption in our days is the usual standard, it will not be easy but how ever there should be a try.

metta & mudita

Johann

Quote
Am 2013-05-12 16:46, schrieb Thomas Crisman:

    Hello Johann:
     

    Regarding the potential commercial use of the text of the VRI Pali Tipitaka or any derivitive works produced thereby, I have made it crystal clear to the Oxford organization that such will not be permitted by VRI under any circumstances.  They have now proposed that they will not place their work under the GNU license agreement but rather place their Wiki under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0,
    a license agreement that absolutely guarantees that while attribution of changes to the text must be made for any reuse, none of the material incorporating any part of the VRI text can ever be used in any commercial way.  I think that this would be acceptable to VRI.
     
    Regarding their plan to allow people who interested in the words of the Buddha as found in the Tiptiaka to propose different translations or puncuation, etc. I don't know that VRI would object to such scholarly efforts as long as there is a clear notice that VRI does not subscribe to or condone any other textual changes or translations other than that which its own scholars have provided in the original text.
     
    Regarding whether they have the "right view" or attitude in their project, perhaps people sometime come to the right view by trying different things and slowly realizing that they are on the wrong path.  I don't know that there is any way we can really justifying not allowing them to provide further access to the words of the buddha based upon their attitude or volition, short of something like at attempt at commercialization.
     
    I trust that this change in the proposed license agreement to be used by Oxford under their Wiki satisfies your major objections to VRI allowing them access to its Pali Tipitaka text.
     
    With All Metta,
    Thomsa
     
     
     
 
   To:                            thomas [at] crisman.com
    Subject:                   Re: Legal and official clearance sale of the Tipitaka
    Date sent:               Sun, 12 May 2013 07:35:53 +0200
    From:                       Johann Brucker <johann.brucker [at] sangham.net>
    Copies to:               help [at] tipitaka.org, info [at] vridhamma.org
     
     

    Valued Thomas Crisman,

    it is very good to hear such. I just like to add that this license allows even the legal change of the content of texts which are provided under this license and as the text are copied and used in this undertaking already they are subjectively already under this license and such needs to be made reversed.

    In the context of the GNU license everybody would be not only able to sell it but also to modify as he wishes. And that includes in this case the quoted/copied and usedp ali texts of the Chaha Sagayana as well.

    As my general impression is that those people do not have basic right view and basic devotion and gratitude, I would recommend you to use the support of a wise advocate if you think that it is useful and good to make this work useable in such an very worldly environment and pretentious "anonymous" and "occupy" movement.

    Please do not regard my advices as authoritarian but as a well meant advice and there is really nothing to criticize if devotion, gratitude and basic right view with its right intention is leading to good and broader work. It would be good if as much people as possible would be able to participate in such undertakings if the objectives (which should be not for and worldly gain) are clear adjusted. But if people are not willing to accept the basic moral of the Buddhas teaching, he would not even had taught them anything further.

    Yours respectfully

    metta
    Johann Brucker
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 04:37:46 PM by Johann »
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

August 17, 2018, 02:21:49 AM
Mein's oder nicht meines, (Gier) Liebe oder Hass... Da sind wenige, die Blumen im Wald stehen lassen und Insekten nicht töten, weder bleiben noch gehen, und alles geben aus Wohlwollen und Mitgefühl, Weisheit gewonnen, Geiz besiegt und Güte ohne zu vereinnahmen. Wie konnten andere diese je sehen,
 

Johann

August 13, 2018, 05:13:25 AM
Händler mögen es nicht sich für passendes Mudita hinzugeben, und würden nur in Lob über deren Handelsware sprechen. Warum Leute Lobenswertes nicht loben: apacayana eine er 12 Personen: "...ein Geschäftsmann, sich seiner Schuld zum Arbeiten für seinen Vorteil verschrieben."
 

Johann

August 11, 2018, 12:06:41 AM
Erfreuenden und klärenden Neumond-Uposatha, den Ehrw. Herren, Anhängern und Interessierten.
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 08:31:57 PM
Sokh chomreoun Nyom. Möge sich Sukha zur Vollständigkeit mehren.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
Ich muss wieder an die Arbeit. Einen angenehmen Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

August 10, 2018, 05:25:27 PM
Nyom Moritz.

Nyom Mohan.
 

Moritz

August 10, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante _/\_
 

Mohan Gnanathilake

August 05, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
Sehr ehrwürdiger Samanera Johann,

ich habe der Gruppe „ Anussavika“ beigetreten.

Dhamma Grüβe an Sie aus Sri Lanka!
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:38:15 PM
Den Weg kennend, im Vertrauen jenen folgen ihn gehend, gegangen, sich dann ausschließlich um die Enihsltung des Weges kümmer, gelangt man nach oben und hinaus. So, in dieser Weise, ist "der Weh ist das Ziel zu verstehen.
 

Johann

July 31, 2018, 04:33:35 PM
Mögen alles stets vorrangig auf die Qualitäten von Handlungen und Hingaben, die Ursachen für Früchte achten und nicht wie dumme gewöhnliche Leute, Zeile fixieren und danach gfreifen, die Ursachen damit fehlen, nie zu Früchten kommend, falscher Mitteln für Wirkung bedient.

Mudita
 

Johann

July 28, 2018, 07:38:00 AM
on how the blessed hobby, the liberating anime, the sublime gotchi decays for one and at a certain point for all: Dhamma-Gotchi and only fake last for some times lasting till also the mythos decays.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:45 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.
 

Johann

July 26, 2018, 01:50:20 PM
Morgen, Vollmond vor dem Vassa seiend, mag jener, der nicht zu sehr verstrickt in Fehlinvestitionen, die Gelegenheit für Lösung von Verstrickungen zu nützen vermögen.

Roman

July 22, 2018, 08:01:16 PM
Danke für die Infos
und eine friedliche Nacht
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 06:27:44 PM
Atma, zieht sich nun zurück, wieder spät geworden, Nyom. Ruhe Freude und Geduld beim ungestörten Erkunden und Gelegenheiten, Gegeben-heiten, nutzen.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:13:38 PM
Atma wird das Gespräch nun versuchen in Passendes Thema im Forum zu kopieren.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
In Sorge Unmut ob der Situation, gänzlich anders Vorgestellt,  zu mehren, hatte Johann nicht nach Marcel gefragt. Doch hätte er, würde er er erwähnen, wenn da dringliches und triftige Sorge um Marcel wäre. Gute Übung und Lehre, alles in allem, für viele, wenn danach ausgerichtet. Also einfach
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Bhante Indannano, Johann angerufen habend, kurz, vor Tagen, unterrichtet geworden das Johann am Weg in die Hauptstadt sein, hatte sich sehr zurückhaltend und kurz gehalten. Wohl nicht mit den weltlichen Hindernissen all zu Erfreut und noch ungelößt.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:03:21 PM
Im Verwenden des Forums, überall, keine Sorge irgendwo was Falsch zu machen, ist es Stressfreier und Langlebiger, auch für andere, als Geschenk, Nyom Roman. Woimmer.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 03:00:55 PM
Nyom kam Nyom als "füherer Elternteil/Verwandter" betrachten. Hie etwas Technischer: ញោម "Nyom", ñoma - Ursprung bzw. Bedeutung
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:56:10 PM
Wenn Sie sich freimachen können, besuchen Sie ihn, und machen Sie Entdeckungsreise in unbekannter Welt, während ihm vielleich Weltliches abnehmen könnend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:53:55 PM
mit Freude tun oder Geben mag, wo immer, ist vorallem für Roman glücksverheißend, neben Moraluscher Stange zum Glück für ihn haltend.
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
Mag er sicher Abstand von Unsicherm Gewinnen. Was immer Roman sich inspiriet fühlt, geschicktes, niemanden Verletzendes zu geben, zu tun, gar vielleicht mehr an jemand erhabener als "nur" eigener Bruder denkend,

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:49:04 PM
  Und was bedeutet Nyom...Ich habe versucht zu übersetzen.  Jedoch weiß ich nicht ob der Bezug richtig ist
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:48:39 PM
Johann hat ihn schon länger nicht persönlich getroffen, ob in Buchstaben, am Ohr oder mit mehr Sinnen. Gestern war er wohl online hier. Denke er ist sehr vertieft in der Praxis und hat eigentlich wenig Interesse sich um Äußerses zu kümmern.

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:46:46 PM
Beim lesen von den Beiträgen fällt es mir noch bißchen schwer alles zu verstehen...Ich frage mich gerade wer Atma ist..Und moritz bist du für die Internetseite zuständig?  

Roman

July 22, 2018, 02:43:49 PM
Hallo,

Ich lese viel hier und wollte mich mal erkundigen wie es mit Marcel so steht..Hatte letzte Woche mit ihm gesprochen und es geht ihm gut! Hatte Johann geschrieben wie ich helfen kann..
 

Johann

July 22, 2018, 02:41:15 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Sophorn

July 20, 2018, 05:09:54 AM
Sadhu. Möge es ein verdienstvolller Tag sein!
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 20, 2018, 03:06:04 AM
Allen einen verdienstvollen Silatag, der letzte vor dem Antritt der Regenrückzugszeit.
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman

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