Another day, another possibility. We don't know what tomorrow might be. _()_
Ein neuer Tag, wieder eine Möglichkeit. Wir wissen nicht was morgen sein wird. _()_
ថ្ងៃ ថ្មី មួូយ ជា ឳកាស ថ្មី មួយ ទៀត។ យើង មិន អាច ដឹង មុន នូវ អ្វី ដែល នឹង កើតឡើង ថ្ងៃ ស្អែក
"Dhammo have rakkhati dammacāriṁ"
"N'atthi santi param sukham"
The relationship between sammā kammantā and kammanirodha I understand as follows: Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
“navapurāṇāni , bhikkhave, kammāni desessāmi kammanirodhaṃ kammanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmīti.
"O bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and do mind it well, I will speak."katamañca, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ?
cakkhu, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ vedaniyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ...pe.... mano purāṇakammo abhisaṅkhato abhisañcetayito vedaniyo daṭṭhabbo.
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, purāṇakammaṃ.
And what, O bhikkhus, is old kamma?
The eye, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen. ...pe.... The mind, O bhikkhus, is old kamma, especially conditioned, especially intended, to be felt, to be seen.
This is called, O bhikkhus, old kamma.katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.
And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodho?
yo kho, bhikkhave, kāyakammavacīkammamanokammassa nirodhā vimuttiṃ phusati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodho.
And what, O bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma?
[That] which touches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action and mental action.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the cessation of kamma.katamā ca, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā?
ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ -- sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā.
“And what, O bhikkhus, is the path leading to the cessation of kamma?
It is just this noble eightfold path, that is -- right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood , right effort, right mindfulness, right samādhi.
This is called, O bhikkhus, the path leading to the cessation of kamma.]iti kho, bhikkhave, desitaṃ mayā purāṇakammaṃ, desitaṃ navakammaṃ, desito kammanirodho, desitā kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā. yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satthārā karaṇīyaṃ sāvakānaṃ hitesinā anukampakena anukampaṃ upādāya, kataṃ vo taṃ mayā. etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchāvippaṭisārino ahuvattha. ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī”ti.
“Thus, O bhikkhus, I have taught old kamma, I have taught new kamma, I have taught the cessation of kamma, I have taught the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever should be done, O bhikkhus, by a teacher for his disciples, desiring their welfare, having pity for them, that has been done for you by me, out of compassion. These are the feet of trees, O bhikkhus, these are empty huts. Cultivate jhāna, O bhikkhus, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
“so hi brāhmaṇa sambuddho, sabbadhammāna pāragū.
sabbābhiññābalappatto, sabbadhammesu cakkhumā.
sabbakammakkhayaṃ patto, vimutto upadhikkhaye.
He is a Sambuddha, brahmin, a transcender of all dhammas,
Having attained all higher knowledges and powers, endowed with eye in all dhammas,
he has attained to the destruction of all kamma, liberated through the destruction of all appropriations.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
sīlabbataṃ vāpi pahāya sabbaṃ
kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṃ
suddhī asuddhī ti apatthayāno
virato care santimanuggahāya
Having abandoned all virtue and observances
and kamma, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.
At this point it may also be relevant to investigate who the recipient of the kammic fruits of one´s wholesome and unwholesome deeds of body, speech or mind, is. The doer himself, or others? The answer is found in the following stock-phrases in the discourses: “I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.” (AN 10.48 )
“Beings are owners of their actions, student, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes beings as inferior and superior.” (MN 135 )
Sammā kammantā, when supported by the other path factors, eventually leads (saṁvattati) to the cessation of rebirth-productive kamma at the time of attainment of Arahantship, and to the cessation of all actions (kamma) by body speech or mind, at the time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, asekho bhikkhucha indriyāni pajānāti.
‘Cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ—’imāni kho cha indriyāni sabbena sabbaṃsabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhissanti, aññāni ca cha indriyāni na kuhiñci kismiñciuppajjissantī’ti pajānāti.
Ayampi kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃpariyāyaṃ āgamma asekho bhikkhuasekhabhūmiyaṃ ṭhito ‘asekhosmī’ti pajānātī”ti.
Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is one beyond training wisely understands the six faculties—the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty, the mind faculty. He wisely understands: ‘These six faculties will cease completely and totally without remainder, and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in any way.’ This too is a method by means of which a bhikkhu who is beyond training, standing on the plane of one beyond training, wisely understands: ‘I am one beyond training.’”
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
“‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā atthi ca natthi ca aññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti. ‘channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā nevatthi no natthaññaṃ kiñcī’ti, iti vadaṃ appapañcaṃ papañceti.
"Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is something else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is both something else and nothing else', one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated. Friend, if one says thus: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact, there is neither something else nor nothing else,' one proliferates that which ought not be proliferated."]yāvatā, āvuso, channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati tāvatā papañcassa gati; yāvatā papañcassa gati tāvatā channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ gati. channaṃ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṃ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.
Friend, as far as the range of the six bases of contact extends, just so far extends the range of papañcā. As far as the range of papañcā extends, just so far extends the range of the six bases for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases of contact there is the cessation of papañcā, the subsiding of papañcā."
When he says “Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.”, this refers to kamma in its active/productive form, as the action that leads to results (vipāka) for the doer in the future.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
katamañca, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ?
yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, etarahi kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā,
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, navakammaṃ.
And what, O bhikkhus, is new kamma?
O bhikkhus, whatever present action is done by body, speech, or mind.
This is called, O bhikkhus, new kamma.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
“katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā — rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.
“And what, O bhikkhus, are saṅkhārā?
There are these six classes of volition — volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tangibles, volition regarding dhammas. These, O bhikkhus, are called sankhārā.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.
And why, O bhikkhus, do you call them saṅkhārā?
‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti. Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.
And what is the conditioned that they precondition? 'They precondition conditioned form as form; they precondition conditioned feeling as feeling; they precondition conditioned perception as perception; they precondition conditioned saṅkhārā as saṅkhārā; they precondition conditioned consciousness as consciousness'. ‘They precondition the conditioned,’ O bhikkhus, therefore they are called saṅkhārā.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.
“To whatever extent there are dhammas that are conditioned, the noble eightfold path is declared the foremost among them".
However, it is not said in AN 3.34 that an Arahant´s deeds cannot be called “actions” (lit.kamma) anymore in a conventional sense. Otherwise, how else should one call them? The Theravāda tradition has chosen to use “kiriya” instead.
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife, without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, and would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife, and having cut, severed, and carved all this away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”
“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
“Beings percipient of what can be expressed
Become established in what can be expressed.
Not fully understanding what can be expressed,
They come under the yoke of Death.
But having fully understood what can be expressed,
One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’
For that does not exist for him
By which one could even speak of him.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Saṅkhāya vatthūni pamāya bījaṃ,
sineham assa nānuppavecche,
sa ve munī jātikhayantadassī,
takkaṃ pahāya na upeti saṅkhaṃ.
"Having surveyed the field and measured the seed,
He waters it not for moisture,
That sage in full view of birth's end,
Lets go of logic and comes not within designation."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
sa sabbadhammesu visenibhūto
yaṃ kiñci diṭṭhaṃ va sutaṃ mutaṃ vā
tameva dassiṃ vivaṭaṃ carantaṃ
kenīdha lokasmi vikappayeyya
Unopposed to all things he has become
whether those seen and heard or those thought about.
The one seeing just that, faring openly,
by what in the world could you make him out?
"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.
Dear saddhamma ,
The way I read the passage is, that it is trying to say that the conditioning power of an Arahant's actions by body, speech and mind does not exist anymore. There will be no kammic results (vipāka) as the consequence of his actions by body speech and mind.
I do not take this passage to mean that an Arahant has no more body, no more speech and no more mind.
In fact, it almost sounds absurd to say that the body comprised of the 4 great elements does not exist anymore after one has attained Arahantship.
However, it is not absurd at all to say that an Arahant's bodily actions etc. lack the basis to accumulate productive kamma (kammavipāka), because ignorance has been eliminated and therefore there being no more basis for the generation of kammic fruits based on actions by body, speech or mind.
As the sutta says, "that body/speech/mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
It does not say, that there is no more body/speech/mind altogether.
I would rather understand it to mean that an Arahant's actions do not produce future pleasure and pain, yet he experiences pleaseure and pain as the fruits of past kamma until he attains khandhaparinibbāna. Clearly the Buddha and other Arahants experienced physical pain. They even took medicine to overcome their ailments (e.g. Sāriputta requested garlic at some point).
This goes to show that they still have a body, speech and mind and the noble eightfold path for them is complete with eight factors, including right livelihood, right speech, and right view.
What do you think about this, Saddhamma?* Johann : corrected bbcode-error. An mention, to avoid possible feeling of impolite, overseen that have been adressed.
"But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, that body does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that speech does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain; that mind does not exist conditioned by which there arises inward pleasure and pain."
To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
The common person:
..."He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you....
The Sekha:
..."He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you....
The Asekha, Arahat:
"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.
My understanding based on this sutta is that the arahant’s all-action (by body, speech and mind) is not so easy to designate as the Abhidhamma would like us to believe, and that the arahant need not wait for khandhaparinibbāna for cessation of all-action (by body, speech and mind). To the naked eyes, the arahant may appear to be performing all-action (by body, speech and mind) and so we may want to designate it as kamma or kiriya, but according to the Buddha, that body, speech and mind just doesn’t exist for the arahant for such a designation to apply. This is how I understand it.
May Bhante kindly point out other suttas I may have overlooked in support of kammanirodha taking place at time of the Arahant's khandhaparinibbāna, out of compassion.
Dear Bhante Johann,
Don’t take this to mean the whole of Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong. It is only those teachings that does not hold up under the scrutiny of dhammavinaya that need to be discarded as badly learned.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa
Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā: musāvādā veramaṇī, pisunāya vācāya veramaṇī. Pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā.
Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā: yā kho bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgīno ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato catuhipi vacīduccaritehi ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammāvācā ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā. So micchāvācāya pahānāya vāyamatī, sammā vācāya upasampadāya. Svāssa1 hoti sammāvāyāmo. So sato micchāvācaṃ pajahati. Sato sammāvācaṃ upasammajja viharati. Sāssa hoti sammāsati. Itissime2 tayo dhammā sammāvācaṃ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti. Seyyathīdaṃ: sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.
"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right speech, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"And what is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the right speech that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.
What I do care about is, whether my understanding of the Dhamma is based on the Buddha's own teachings, or just on the some modern interpretation of it. In this sense you can call me a traditionalist, because I take refuge in the Buddha and not in later generations of teachers, ancient and current commentators alike.
I have pointed out Mahāpadesasutta AN 4.180 before, which I take as my yardstick for coming to conclusions about the authenticity of certain teachings, or lack thereof.