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Author Topic: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]  (Read 971 times)

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Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« on: April 09, 2018, 08:50:13 PM »

Johann   *

Weiterbearbeitung des Themas: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie , aus April 2014.

Aramika   *

Dieses neue Thema (bzw. diese/r Beitrag/e) wurde  aus abgetrennten Beiträgen, ursprünglich in Sterilization - Castration, a matter of compassion or just unskilfull? , hinzugefügt. Für ev. ergänzende Informationen zur sehen Sie bitte das Ursprugsthema ein. Anumodana!
[Original post:]


It's really strange that you take issue with compulsory sterilization (either of humans or of animals).
You have always been a staunch proponent of the idea that people have no rights.
So why do you take issue with examples of when people (or animals) are treated as if they have no rights?

That's not the point, Nyom Binocular.
It is precisely the point.

Quote
My person wonders why Nyom stays that much on the surface here, does not let the matter penetrate to a more clearer stage.
Because I have no rights. See?


B.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 02:36:01 AM by Johann »

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 09:07:46 PM »
Does that mean that it is thought that certain "Reichsärzte-Philosophie" found ground here? Or how should that be understood, this "I deprive you forced from your possibilities of ancestors, because they will probably estimated as worthless and killed (better they gain birth as a chicken...  *provocative*). Does not any being die? This approch if followed would be an argument for annihilationist to best destruct the whole possibilities for taking birth... so what's that, (to this amount, hopefully "just") eel-wriggling approach about?
This is what the State and Religion do to people anyway.

Everytime I see a truck that transports live animals to the slaughterhouse, I think of how the State and Religion do the same thing to people's spirit, and sometimes, to their bodies. The State and Religion want us to be obedient, docile, and not resist when they want to kill us.

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 02:19:58 AM »
Oh yes... the bad "mighty"... is that all what can be effort by advices toward a better?

Then go on, do the villagers way of discussing about philosophy their situations and how all would be better without being guided. Don't worry, actually both, wordily and beyond advices have nearly extinct in this world and defilements run their causes. By their majority you already have all the ways previous desired.

The old Krabat traumatic ... the liberation of defilement.

Go on as usual. Nobody, and at least Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha would force you to anything. Just think in how far it is of use to feed on what is rejected. Like a child should think twice before talking about their parents.

It's just here in this case most ironically if looking at the masters ways, demands and forces in regard of his pets-folk.

A weel caught in hard to see, the matter "like the master, so his slaves".

Like years before, Nyom Binoclar did not step a little out of her victim-blaming.

Seeking nicca (control able) in what is anicca (not controlable) beings search for power and blame other that their thought contructs don't last. "Who ever does fulfill my desires, I will voye for, give into! Who ever does not blame me, shows 'metta' toward me, I devote!"

That's why masters love (are bound to) pets, pets their master... they provide each other with their desired they need to enjoy feeding on.Hard to give up ones desires, hard to gain thereby release, since a master teaching the abounding of desires would require to actually desire for release.

And then they sing their community gospels: Heartlessness (and a waving flag) - Herzlosigkeit (und die flatternde Fahne)

It really feels better, bring fruits, rather to live a consumer, demander live, to change to be a giver, a rich, one with no demand for his/her shares, toward those worthy to be given.

If fearing to lost house, home and entertainment, how could liberating ever be met, even in front?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 02:56:50 AM by Johann »
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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 09:34:34 PM »
Oh yes... the bad "mighty"... is that all what can be effort by advices toward a better?

Then go on, do the villagers way of discussing about philosophy their situations and how all would be better without being guided. Don't worry, actually both, wordily and beyond advices have nearly extinct in this world and defilements run their causes. By their majority you already have all the ways previous desired.

The old Krabat traumatic ... the liberation of defilement.

Go on as usual. Nobody, and at least Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha would force you to anything. Just think in how far it is of use to feed on what is rejected. Like a child should think twice before talking about their parents.
Cynicism is the lowest form of wit.

It's not about not wanting to be guided.
It's about not wanting to be guided by people who despise those they guide.
Can you tell the difference?

It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of quiet desperation.
It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of quiet desperation.
It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of pretenses and going through the motions. 



Quote
Hard to give up ones desires, hard to gain thereby release, since a master teaching the abounding of desires would require to actually desire for release.

It would really help if you'd work on your English, because the way you sometimes confuse words results in saying the opposite of what you probably intended.

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 06:06:58 AM »
Oh yes... the bad "mighty"... is that all what can be effort by advices toward a better?

Then go on, do the villagers way of discussing about philosophy their situations and how all would be better without being guided. Don't worry, actually both, wordily and beyond advices have nearly extinct in this world and defilements run their causes. By their majority you already have all the ways previous desired.

The old Krabat traumatic ... the liberation of defilement.

Go on as usual. Nobody, and at least Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha would force you to anything. Just think in how far it is of use to feed on what is rejected. Like a child should think twice before talking about their parents.
Cynicism is the lowest form of wit.
Not always, Nyom Binucolar, since a defiled mind would only act further, or release grasped, if it is provocated by what might seem to be out of greed, aversion or ignorance. Yet of course certain kind of belittling for the sake of belittling would be more then poor.
It's not about not wanting to be guided.
It's because people desire to be guided, don't let go of this kind of giver (guṇa , goodness) , that makes it impossible to gain liberating guidance. It's a matter of debt and to whom/what. And the lack of effort of keeping certain promises and to feear of disadvantage breaking up with other certain promises . Guided by Mara (the "guṇa") beings are bond. (It also might make the meaning of the "confusing part" at the end more clear.

It's about not wanting to be guided by people who despise those they guide.
Well, not having a little estimation for ones own defilements is necessary. If one finds them worthy to hold on, regards them as ones own, than there is less way. The resant talk [En] Hold on for All you're worth, Bhante Thanissaro might be useful here. If one would belittle ones good deeds, tendency, and potential, that is of course an enemy. But since it is not easy to take real goodness and enemy in disguise of goodness right, as long as not reached certain level of right goodness by one self, it's difficult and often a guess or ones upanissaya of what is met. Again, also here, giving at first place, makes things quick much more clear. Giving into the right, one derives there. Nothing to fear.

It's possible worthy to make clear, that those actually able to guide toward liberation, do not have and desire to guide or for such as students. They might do it out of compassion in a either formal or informal relation, if wished. Or out of certain duty or graditude toward people/deeds of real goodness, if possible.

Can you tell the difference?
Can, could Nyom take it?

It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of quiet desperation.
It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of quiet desperation.
How could religion, as long the "re" is not simple recidivism of the same old story of "and the it goes back..." a desperation. Of course it's required that one old and hold religion (re-bondgage), which always leads to desperation, has to be given up first. It's, how ever, to re-ligion with ones old merits (results of past good deeds, ones old friend) if coming across and build on it, nurish such inwardly and outwardly for increading upanissaya (strong condition, relation). At least the re-ligion for liberation is not for the sake of re-ligion, but for liberation of at least also from this bond.

It's about not wanting to settle for a religious life of pretenses and going through the motions. 
The/a pretenses is required, in the meaning of Vision, not real yet, and it's not possible to get a diploma is thinking "I just enter the school if I know all", eg. "being" before doing. Of course it whould be not good the pretenses something, but actually has other objectives, use it as means of livelihood, either cheating one self, others, or both. But again, the way (all ways) can not be walked without debts, e.g. certain imitation or what is called "rites and rituals" before they become naturally.

Quote
Hard to give up ones desires, hard to gain thereby release, since a master teaching the abounding of desires would require to actually desire for release.

It would really help if you'd work on your English, because the way you sometimes confuse words results in saying the opposite of what you probably intended.
My person guesses it has been explained, and not sure if it was primarily a language issue (the text may incl. still things which have been explained by Nyoms gift. My person didn't not "consume" it yet.)

In the spirit of this words, my person suggest Nyom to challenge Vaṇṇa macchariya , makes proper use by sharing the given by so many, let good selfestimate not be only a required joy but also ones governig principle and give others chance for proper same and identification by sharing her merits and brightness that comes from it. It's good if given Name and face is shared, in all aspects, and leave an old "religious life of pretenses and going through the motions" and foolish denying. Nyom @Morits , knowing its benefit good himself, might be also your good technical assistant in this regard. (A new "visitor 2" account is easy made, for one or another, wishing to make use, possible follow a left behind path like wise. That's the gift one walks forward, leaves behind, a track, gone by some with similar circumstances toward a vision, realized. E.g. ceratin faith that it is possible by human effort.)

Mudita
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 06:17:48 AM by Johann »
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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 09:23:57 PM »
I'll tell you something about my past, to explain how I've arrived at the point I'm at currently. I was born and raised in a traditionally Catholic country. Due to legitimacy issues, I was not eligible for infant baptism, and so I grew up as the only non-Catholic among Catholics. I was considered a heathen, mocked, verbally, and also physically abused for not being a Catholic. But, as an outsider on the inside, I also got to see Catholicism from a different perspective. Apparently, they didn't really believe what they so staunchly professed to believe. Nobody actually seemed to take Catholic doctrine seriously. Few knew it, or held folk variations of it (such like that not being baptized as an infant, one is sure to go to hell forever). But when it came to me, it somehow mattered that I was not Catholic. For all the humility exercised and the humiliation endured in church, it seems they tried really hard to make up for it at home. Getting drunk, swearing, beating eachother and the animals. Cursing God, the Church, the pope, St. Mary. They all seemed very unhappy.

I'm not complaining or criticising them, I'm too pessimistic for that. I actually concluded that this religious pretense and duplicity, and being miserable is simply as good as life gets anyway, and that one should not hope for anything more. That life is drudgery.

When I came to Buddhism, I have seen so much of it again, just the names and some external details were different. And for a long time, I saw this as evidence that nothing better is possible anyway, and that I should see to it to internalize this, stop resisting, and become this way myself. Right now, I'm not sure what to think.


I apologize for staying distant, not getting a proper account, giving a name and picture. At this point, it doesn't seem right to go in that direction.


Thank you, you've been kind.


B.

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 01:34:01 AM »
Nothing to apologize Nyom Binocolar. It was/is just a suggestion for a possibility to chance, to a not so much just a life (existence, state in a certain world one take birth, a would one creates) of pretenses.

The replay how ever, may it be correted if wrong, is another "yes/no, but I, me, mine", claiming of rights and toward victim blaming. It's normal.

Maybe again as reminder generally if gain of friends or living bond in a ceratin society is wished. Giving veneration (to that what is worthy, or one likes to go for) is the readon for honor. Giving material things (this incl. such as knowledge and certain skills) is the reason to win friends.

Or better complete, all 4 Sangha vatthus, in it's highest again, as means for liberation.

Also, maybe again: Sozialisieren, mit wem und warum | Socialize with who, why | ធ្វើសង្គមមូបនីយកម្ម

Sozialisieren - សង្គម [Sangama]

to find that what might seek for.

Gain can not be obtained/accumulated by just seeking of what merits and where, are left, but always by giving/sacrifice.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 03:11:37 AM by Johann »
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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 07:17:20 PM »
Bhante, thank you for your reply.


I wrote a reply, but decided it would not be appropriate to post it.

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 08:29:24 PM »
Bhante, thank you for your reply.


I wrote a reply, but decided it would not be appropriate to post it.


Edit:
Why do you say victim blaming ?
Or did you mean victim mentality ?

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Re: Meinungsverschiedenheit und Hierarchie [2]
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 12:47:32 AM »
Attention, empathy and care by Nyom Binuclar is amazing.

May "she" be touched
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Johann

October 16, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Nyom Roman.
 

Johann

October 12, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Good to see Nyom Norum.
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
Maybe of support for lasting satifaction: Seeds of Becoming .
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 06:57:38 AM
When ever love arises, dislike will be it's end. Who ever seeks out for friends, will get his enemy. Why? Because not willing to leave home. May wanderer gus find the way to never return. Mudita

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Vandami.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:38:22 AM
Nevertheless my courage of active participation  has been fallen down. Anyway I hope to come time to time.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam khamata me bhante.

gus

October 07, 2018, 03:37:11 AM
Okasa bhante,

I didn't accepted Dymitros invitation to start a Theravada forum, because I thought this forum is pure Theravada. Now I regret about it, yet think this forum is comparatively good.  I learnt many valuable things from you and grateful to you. Nevertheless my courage of active partici
 

Johann

October 07, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
What ever one searches for, that he/she will find. Less are those seeing the nature of combined thing, leaving home and go beyond Maras domain.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:45:18 PM
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:39:12 PM
When one is born in outer regions ... your island has drifted away.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 11:30:00 PM
macchariya, a boarder hard to cross to the middle way, abounding home, sakayaditthi, doubt and rituals.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
However much one say, West is West, East is East.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
Where ever there is east, there is west. And vici versa. Where ever there is nama, there is rupa. Where ever one seeks for a home, there he will suffer.

gus

October 06, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
West is West

gus

October 06, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
belief of kamma, gratitude, independence, honesty, devotion : These are hard to find in people
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:49:14 AM
Again, a latin proverb mit be useful: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi , patisota is always harmful if not just one own defilements or having a proper stand to help. Sota is the virtue required to resist in borderlands.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 05:41:52 AM
If in a borderland it's better to simply serve and support the Sangha. It's not smart to seek for other householders to nurish on traced imperfections of something required to uphold, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 04:54:48 AM
Okasa, happy to hear such things reagarding kamma. Many monks I have met don't directly speak about kamma because they have been tired after practicing some years and now bit relaxed.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
Such can be total kusala and total akusala or simply defuse. Set your mind right and be mindful, that nothing will be of harm for yourself and others.
 

Johann

October 06, 2018, 04:15:27 AM
There is nothing not permitted. Merits or demerits are the actors responsibility. One is full in charge of ones action in this Domain here, wanderer gus.

gus

October 06, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
Bhante, is it permitted to ask questions or post things on behalf of other/future people ?

gus

October 05, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
We have been advised like this:
"No matter however much monks reject you,
Never leave the place."
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
It's good when wanderer gus takes a rest, turns to a lonly place, enjoys the merits done and find a good place for his mind and fixes possible open wholes when clear where he likes to go some hours later.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Wanderer Gus knows how foolish this statement is. That is not the way to get out of a hole.

gus

October 05, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
okasa,
falling down from a status is suffering.
So, if I could stay in the hell-being status from the beginning, then no suffering.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:33:20 AM
From a state of a young Bhikkhu equal tradition...to householder... ...asura (now) on the border to animal, peta, hell-state. It can go quick if not having firm nissaya.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Aniccam vatta samsara...

gus

October 05, 2018, 06:56:28 AM
Evolution:
Bhante subhuti =>
Upasaka gus =>
Deva gus =>
Asura gus.

In the future:
Asura gus =>
Peta gus =>
Animal gus =>
Hell-being gus ???

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:51:42 AM
Okasa, I think bhante thinks me as a patriot because of some content of my posts. But it is not.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 05, 2018, 05:41:33 AM
What ever one likes to, not touched like the moon, does not mean to praise what is blameworthy and vici-versa and to have metta not to let people run into hell if ways can be pointed out. Yet other choices at least are their. Be quick, your island drifts away!

gus

October 05, 2018, 05:34:15 AM
Okasa,
As long as I don't do exactly what you say, I think I'll not be able to make you happy or satisfied.
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
If thinking that this is for sure, if delighting in believing that connected things are a refuge and give space to rest: one may do so. Ones own choice. When ever one stops to nurish inwardly, ouwardly path and fruits die. Good as well as bad.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:28:51 AM
If bhante didn't let the weak person to live in avatar/deva mode, then he will lose both openness and connection. Up to now I have secured at least the connection.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Yet I appreciate and pay vandana for your care and advice on openness.
Vandami.

gus

October 04, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
Please forgive me  bhante if I have made you tired. I don't like to accumulate akusala by making a monk tired in expecting a naughty chicken to be a good duck.
Okasa dwarattayena katam sabbam accayam Khamtu me bhante!
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Differnt asked "why is Bhante not happy, dwell not in outwardly seeming being not touched?" Because it would not only confirm and show sign of aggreement of unwise acts, but also very incompassionate and cruel. Also place for suspecting corrupt ways and invite others to follow the comfortable dwelli
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
No one is able to make my person angry, which does not mean that he would not appear angry so to possible prevent from doing what is not conductive for liberation, even lead in lower states. Nothing to worry, but also no invitation to test it foolish since it could hurt one self and others.

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM
Okasa bhante, Isn't there at least single way to stay anonymous without making you angry?
Vandami.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
corr: "it's, the domain of the Noble Ones, is nobody's personal domain" there are no wards around fields for merits and no tickets to pay
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:29:31 AM
What ever Deva gus feels inspired. It's oneones personal domain and all giving is good in the distance of the brigh cool moon. One should not fear, should not be shy to do what is good and praised by the wise but be quick!

gus

October 04, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Bhante, is that mean you don't like me to talk about higher subjects and like to talk about basics only?
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
It would be more than good if teaching others a lot on the topic vandami (paying respect) and khamatu (asking for forgiviness) since unknown and not practiced here around this field of merits in compassion to former relatives, Deva gus.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
...total no problem to dwell and lay down in the cool shadow to heal at all and no need to ask for pardon when intended for progressing and to get fit for the battles so hard to win.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:52:39 AM
But they would not feed them in ways which might look as nurishing relations for wordly sake directly, for people not understanding would think "look, he is herding, carry for his cattle, he wasts the gift of the land, the heritage of the Gems for his becoming and own gain. Understood? Total no prob
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
Never would people of integrity send away pets, petas or sick, for they are not able to change for now but possible can gain of what they need to change.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
If, just to think about, one lives deliberatly with sign showing a rejection of firm trust in kamma, one lives in nurishing the danger of falling into grave wrong views and give ways that others follow what is improper to do. Just to reflect. How ever wishing to do.
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:36:03 AM
What ever one does, holds as refuge or abounds, either good or bad refuge, one does for one self. Ones own choices, ones own fruits, ones own limitations, hindrences.

gus

October 04, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Khamatu me bhante!
My previous  post was this.
"Please forgive me and give birth to kindness ao as to let me live here anonymous "
 

Johann

October 04, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
... doing so based on gratitude without just trading in giving, or out of duty in a relation one resits, one is able to get not only to the borders, but into Noble ones domain.

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