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[Buddha]

Author Topic: [Q&A] What can (should) be done about fake monks?  (Read 380 times)

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Offline Johann

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[Q&A] What can (should) be done about fake monks?
« on: December 05, 2017, 11:50:31 AM »

[Q&A] What can (should) be done about fake monks?

Quote from: asked by Anthony, on BSE
What can be done about fake monks?

In the city where i live (Toronto, although this is an issue in many cities around the world), there are people dressed as monks soliciting others on the street for donations. In return, various good luck charms are offered.

The fake monks speak little English, and will try to justify their begging with the claim that donations are for building a temple back home.

Is there anything I can or should do about this?

Are these fake monks giving Buddhism a bad name, or at least obscuring Buddhism's true message?

Are the fake monks doing an ironic good by giving people the chance to practice generosity?

Venerable members of the Sangha,
walking in front Fellows in leading the holly life.

  _/\_  _/\_  _/\_

In Respect of the Triple Gems, Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, in Respect of the Elders of the community  _/\_ , my person tries to answer this question. Please, may all knowledgeable Venerables and Dhammika, out of compassion, correct my person, if something is not correct and fill also graps, if something is missing.

Valued Upasaka, Upasika, Aramika(inis),
dear Readers and Visitors,

 *sgift*

(This is a maybe modified and expanded answer of the "original" that can be found here .)

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -



It's maybe good to distinguish between a "monk not sticking with his rules" or a "monk - 'living by theft'" and a recluse/brahman of other traditions.

The first means that he has gained the going forth and possible acceptance by the Sangha of Buddhas disciples but lives with wrong livelihood, bad means, corrupt.

The second means that one "for the sake of his belly" (livelihood, wordily gains) uses the appearance and declatation of being an accepted (ordained) Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni by the Sangha of the Buddha.

The last, someone who might beg and "just" look like or be assumed by people being a Bhikkhu, would actually not allow to call him "fake monk" in the context here. Hegshe might be "just" a beggar of other sects.

Giving someone in need or to come after someones request is very seldom wrong. If wishing to gain possible high fruits by benefiting the Sangha, Novices but also lay people "working" for them, good to simply ask if not willing to sacrify to secterians and others.

To gain the most of ones sacrifies, itjs of course from use to be well informed but also not foolish biased at the same time.

And it's good to know that if one has not gained certain level on sainthood, one, even if correct accepted, is a "fake monk" (eg. an outsider) to that extent. And it could be that someone appearing totally fakish, even unseemingly, one might be actually an insider (one of the Sangha in ideal therms).

So one should be carefull in regard of such and prove well, not only in regard of Vinaya but also in regard of Dhamma.

Generally it is to say that neither a correct good member of the monastic Sangha nor a Novice nor a recluse of certain sainthood would beg for money, take and make use of it. So such can not be regarded as recluse (monk) but has to be seen as a householder. Whether one begs on the street or behind his desktop for his fondings, undertakings, asks, takes takes use and controll over money (means of exchange and trade)... such should be regarded as householder even if a well known and public regarded monk (a fake to that extent).

Yet, if one is clear about that, there is nothing bad in fonding or helping certain householder undertakings, depending of what one feels inspired to give and as the Buddha rejected as people told "the Buddha says, one should give only to his disciples":

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

"Master Gotama, I have heard that 'Gotama the contemplative says this: "Only to me should a gift be given, and not to others. Only to my disciples should a gift be given, and not to others. Only what is given to me bears great fruit, and not what is given to others. Only what is given to my disciples bears great fruit, and not what is given to the disciples of others."'...
Quote from: AN 3.57

How ever, since the topic is not so easy and good and benefical giving requires discernment, it's good to learn but mostly simply practice where ever there is a chance and proper time .

Possible helpful additions can be found here:

My person came even accross well-known Bhikkhus who puplic encouraged people to call even police. Such is not the way of a not-fake monk and given that in modern world often highest livelihood is not only regarded as not welcome but even against law on certain places, in certain countries, what if not just cutting oneself off of possibilities to make merits in approaching issues in foolish and biased ways, whould one gain?

Just more of the obstacle to liberation: Stinginess , or?

So, in relation of proper time as well:

 

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Not to contemplatives,
  to brahmans,
  to the miserable,
  nor to the homeless
  does he share what he's gained:
      food,
      drinks,
      nourishment.
  He, that lowest of people,
      is called a cloud with no rain.

To some he gives,
  to others he doesn't:
      the intelligent call him
      one who rains locally.

A person responsive to requests,
  sympathetic to all beings,
  delighting in distributing alms:
      "Give to them!
      Give!"
      he says.
  As a cloud — resounding, thundering — rains,
      filling with water, drenching
      the plateaus & gullies:
          a person like this
          is like that.
  Having rightly amassed
  wealth attained through initiative,
  he satisfies fully with food & drink
  those fallen into
  the homeless state.
Quote from: iti

So best is always to either (if able) judge ones mind and own defilements or stick simply with the advices of the wise.

Generally, by using the therm "fake" or by disregarding improper, uninformed (not to speak about out of greed, aversion or not-knowing) recluses or others one might remember this even: Young Now it's not wrong but even good to dispraise of what should be rebuked, after good prove and knowing for sure and if one has the possibility in regard of his status and independency.

Anumodana!
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Offline Johann

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Re: [Q&A] What can (should) be done about fake monks?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 09:20:57 AM »
In regard of possible "Fake monks", someone in Affiliation Through Theft , it is for him who lives in that way, "for the sake of comfortable life" a very serious thing, since by theft he would cut himself of to get a member of the Sangha in this very live.

So there is a lot of reason to have compassion if meeting someone like that, rather to be even jealous and act unwholesome on that.

One does good to never take what is not really given by the owner otherwise it can be that one derives one self from prosperity and wealth, in wordly meaning as well as beyond.

So to take away something even if it has been stolen, from a thief, counts as taking what is not given as well.

It would be/is a transgression for a Bhikkhu to call for police and possible case even a "fake monk" to lose what he regards as his possession.

Of how the Sangha may act on someone living be theft in Affiliation is given by the rule:

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

“A person in affiliation through theft, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.

This can be applied as well for certain sects or groups as well, living in ways not having gained by themselves or not given the heritage of the Noble Ones and use it's means for their objectives in the world.

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

"One who has gone over (while a monk) to another religion, if unaccepted, is not to be given Acceptance. If accepted, he is to be expelled.”
This post and Content has come to be by Dhamma-Dana and so is given as it       Dhamma-Dana: Johann

Tags:
 

Plauderbox

 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante
 :-*  :-* :-*
 

Sophorn

July 14, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
 :)  ;) Moritz, gut einfühlbar. In Österreich lebte der Körper nach der asiatischen Uhr, hier in N nach der österreichischen Uhr.
Nicht zeitgerecht der Natur entsprechend zu leben, überfordert den Körper.  
Beste Grüße aus Kathmandu!  :-*
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Sadhu, und vergesse Nyom sich nicht.
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
Es wird spät in Hawaii. Einen friedlichen Tag allen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
Ja, gestern Vormittag bis Nachmittag. Ich lebe wohl gerade ungefähr im Einklang mit der Zeitzone von Hawaii.
 

Johann

July 14, 2018, 07:36:45 AM
Nyom Moritz. Hat er auch ausreichend Schlaf genommen?
 

Moritz

July 14, 2018, 07:30:08 AM
Good day, Bhante _/\_
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 03:20:13 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Moritz

July 13, 2018, 03:07:40 AM
Ach ja, hab nun geändert. Vielleicht klappt's nun beim nächsten probieren @Roman
_/\_
 

Johann

July 13, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Vielleicht gut wenn Meister Moritz Nyom Roman die 5 Mühsam-Beitagszahl hineinzaubert, da dann spamschutz wegfällt und er zu den unöffentlichen Foren Zugang hat.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Hier eine kurze Bild-Erklärung zum Beantworten von Themen und Beiträgen.
Wenn noch Probleme, gern weiter hier nachfragen. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 09:11:14 PM
Gut zu hören, dass der Bruder sich mitfreut. Sadhu! :)
Möge alles problemlos im Eintritt in das neue Leben für ihn laufen. _/\_

Roman

July 12, 2018, 09:01:41 PM
Danke moritz

Ich werde es ausprobieren!!

Aufjedenfall war es eine sehr erfreuliche Nachricht! ! Ich bin sehr stolz auf marcel!! Mein herz geht auf!! Wunderschön!
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:58:37 PM
(Also auch auf der neuen Seite, wo dann das Text-Eingabefeld ist: Das Text-Eingabefeld ist nicht gleich im Fokus, sondern man muss erst ein gutes Stück nach unten scrollen, um es zu finden.)
Nicht sicher gerade, wie es auf Smartphone aussieht, ob da viel anders ist.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Wenn man ganz unten ans Ende der letzten Nachricht scrollt, sollte da ein Button "Reply" oder "Antworten" sein. (Je nach eingestellter Sprache vielleicht.) Da drauf klicken. Dann sollte auf der nächsten Seite eine Texteingabe-Ansicht erscheinen. Zu der muss man aber erst ein Stück runter scrollen.
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Oh, die Nachricht wurde abgeschnitten. Hier in der Shoutbox sind nur ein paar hundert Zeichen möglich.
Ja, das Forum ist etwas unübersichtlich am Anfang. Moment, ich versuche mal, zu erklären. :)

Roman

July 12, 2018, 08:41:24 PM
Hallo

Ich lese sehr viel hier!! Es ist sehr interessant!! Die Menge an Infos! ! Sehr toll!!..Ich habe versucht auf den Beitrag zu reagieren der die Entwicklung von nyom marcel beschreibt..glaube von Johann verfasst. Jedoch weiß ich noch nicht genau wie dieses funktioniert.
Ich habe die Nachric
 

Moritz

July 12, 2018, 08:34:57 PM
Hallo Roman, Binocular/Visitor _/\_
 

Johann

July 12, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
Nyom Roman
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Ohh... es ist woeder mal 3 geworden. Atma erlaubt sich, sich zurückzuziehen und sich etwas um die Malaria zu kümmern.
 

Johann

July 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Sadhu zu Ersten Ausruf/ Aufruf. Sadhu zum zweiten, zu Vorbildhaftigkeit, und mag er sich stets entlassen fühlen
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 07:00:07 PM
Chom reap leah, Bhante _/\_
Nun wirklich weg hier für heute, Arbeit ruft.
 

Moritz

July 11, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Allen gute Besinnung auf was besinnenswert ([1] | [2] ) ist wünschend _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 08, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Karuna tvay bongkum Bhante :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Nyom Sophorn
 

Danilo

July 08, 2018, 12:20:06 AM
Bhante and Moritz _/\_
 

Johann

July 08, 2018, 12:16:49 AM
Moritz, Danilo
 

Moritz

July 08, 2018, 12:09:40 AM
Good evening, morning or whatever the time here and there. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Meister Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:57:42 PM
Vandami, Bhante _/\_
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
  :-* Hallo Moritz
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
Hallo, Marcel, Sophorn. _/\_
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 05:18:33 AM
Nyom Sophorn, Nachricht von Bhante Indannano: http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,1554.msg15198.html#msg15198
 

Marcel

July 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Bhante
 :-* :-* :-*
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
Nyom Marcel
 

Johann

July 02, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
Geruhsame Nacht, Nyom
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:48:32 AM
Gute Nacht. _/\_
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:47:01 AM
Hallo Mirco! :)
 

Moritz

July 02, 2018, 01:46:48 AM
Sadhu. Möge Bhante lange gesund bleiben. _/\_
 

Johann

July 01, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Sadhu

Angenehmen, klärenden Tag. Auch allen anderen.

Atmas Gesundheit, trotz der durch stetes Regnen zahlreicher Mitesser, ist soweit ok und wer weis wie morgen. Bisher schon länger malariaanfallverschont.

 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
(Bin erst mal kurz weg vom Computer.
Chom reap leah. _/\_)
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Guten Abend, Bhante. _/\_

Wie steht es um Ihre Gesundheit und Malaria?

_/\_
 

Moritz

July 01, 2018, 03:48:17 AM
Hallo Sophorn!
Gruß auch zurück nach Österreich :) _/\_
 

Sophorn

July 01, 2018, 03:40:58 AM
Freut mich, dass es gut geht.

Beste Grüsse nach Asien und Resteuropa!  :-*
 

Marcel

June 30, 2018, 12:23:03 AM
Werte sophorn,
Mir geht es gut!  :-*
 

Sophorn

June 29, 2018, 08:23:49 PM
Werter Marcel,
Wie geht's?
 :-*
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM
  :'(- irrtümlich gesendet!!
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:08:00 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-* :'(
 

Marcel

June 28, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu
 :-* :-* :-*

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